And today we have the famous Robert Hanna. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be doing this with you in Dubai. I'm a big fan of the show, big fan of what you're doing, big fan of everything you do community wise. So we're nearly at 500 episodes since 2018. You know, I always say the comfort zone is great, but nothing ever grows there, right? But then when we started it, a lot of lawyers were very shy at the beginning. Then some of them saw a competition in me. It was like, what does this guy wants to do? I'm why he wants to put me in front of cameras because the legal industry historically has been quite behind other industries in terms of adopting certain media formats technologies although legal technology is very much at the table now and there's lots of data to support that you started with the W the writing the articling right and then sort of maybe you moved into audio and then you've moved into video so if you're strong you're a great lawyer and you love writing maybe start there. Welcome back to the Jewish podcast and today we have the famous Robert Hana. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be doing this with you in Dubai during my trip. Um I'm a big fan of the show, big fan of what you're doing, big fan of everything you do Community wise. So looking forward to chatting. Thank you so much for being here. And by the way guys, Robert Hannah is the host of the biggest legal podcast probably in the world. He has been doing this for how many episodes? So we're nearly at 500 episodes since 2018. Yeah, we launched. It's been crazy. It's been a hell of a journey. I've been calling myself the biggest podcast in the Middle East. But wow, what did you do, man? 500 episodes. Yeah, that's really great. Yeah. Where did you start? So we started in 2018, believe it or not. So it was a long long time ago and the rationale for starting is I launched a legal recruiting business in the UK in London um a year or so before and I realized very early on into that entrepreneurial journey that nobody cared that I set up a legal recruitment business. Absolutely. What I mean by that is there was very established players in the marketplace that had been for 101 15 years had been practicing working with all the major law firms had the established relationships much like the law firms when you have your clients you keep them tight you embed them and I thought well I can continue to do what all of these competitors are doing or I could think about doing something differently and disruptive to get my name and my brand out there and that's when podcasting came in and back then it was new exciting different people hadn't been on a podcast before people didn't some people didn't know what a podcast was back then. And so our way of sort of getting established and building relationships because I always believe in lead with value rather than leading with asks. And so I would go to these relation um law firms and say hi. Um I have this podcast. We do this, this, and this. I'd love to invite you to my office, show you around, make you a cup of tea, have a lovely conversation, and I'll produce a modern form of marketing for you to showcase the way that you do business, your brand on top of some of your traditional marketing efforts. And all I need is 45 minutes of your time. And typically, the response rate to that was very high. I would try to give them a best experience like I'm having today. I've been well treated, love the environment, it's been very warm, very welcoming. Um, and then through that end of the conversation and the follow-up coms, they would say, "Oh, we didn't realize you had a legal recruiting business, and by the way, you've built up that goodwill, you've had that relationship, and so then you're top of mind when they're thinking about hiring or referring people to you." So, it was a really long-term business development, thought leadership, lead flow tool that I don't think um any of my competitors at the time were looking at. And fast forward to where we are today, of course, we've been able to build it into its own media brand in its own right. Um, and we've had significant growth through other initiatives that I'm happy to share as a result of it. But it all started about helping me get people to care about what I was doing originally. I had to break through and looked at blue ocean opportunity and eventually we cut through and it worked. Did it did it really work and then start providing a lot of leads for your business? >> Yeah, I mean to start with it was small and humble, right? So to start with um well actually I tell this story we're very strategic right from the start of the podcast. So I have good friends at the time they were the chair and vice chair of the London Young Lawyers Group. And I'm a big believer in collaboration as domination. So the more you collaborate with organizations, the more you can win. And so I thought when I start the show, I need distribution. I need data. I need access. I need networks. So rather than just inviting anybody on, I invited friends that I'd got to know through the London Young Lawyers Group. And why? a because they were good friends and they would support me and they'd see this new initiative and they were quite open to different things, but B when their show goes out, they're going to distribute that, right? And that's going to go into their newsletter of six and a half thousand lawyers that don't know who I am or don't know I exist. That's going to go out to their social media teams. That's going to go onto their events. And so, like, but we we we sort of audiencejacked quite quickly. And so, we we grew strategically through the guests that we we got on on top of those law firm partners. So that's my tip to anyone if you're thinking about growing. Think about where there's a win-win collaboration or you can get new data points or new people to come into your community because the growth then is exponential and not sort of gradual. So yeah, I think we're quite strategic in how we set about going as well. >> That's really great. I mean I remember the days when I started also the jurist and did that time I didn't look at podcasting because I was a bit shy. I thought let me put my expertise in words so that I can publish it and I can send it out because it was a little bit at that time it was still not so many legal resources that you can find reliable practical legal knowledge online. So I started to invite as you said my friends and my network of lawyers and little by little everybody wanted to write and everybody wanted to be published. It was nice and then later on we started podcast by 2023 I guess. >> Uh I think it was uh podcasting was a thing at that time. It was I was not new but then when we started it a lot of lawyers uh were very shy at the beginning. They did not want to >> go in front of camera. it was very hard to convince them and then as you said the um business development and marketing side of it is very very beneficial for each lawyer and for me I was not a recruiter I was a lawyer as well and some of them saw a competition in me was like what is this guy wants to do and why he wants to put me in front of camera so it was a bit >> even harder for me to convince people to come in to my show did you see any >> um I don't know difficulty bring them bringing them on because they are shy or they question what what is this >> absolutely when it starts and it's new and it's different you know I always say the comfort zone is great but nothing ever grows there right so you want to get people to come out of that comfort zone so we would just walk them through you know and we would we would explain obviously it would be heavily edited they you know we'd make sure that we would make sure their brand is protected the common reservations that you know lawyers would have in terms of it's obviously regulated they want to make sure that the production of equality. They would expect that there's no typos in the show not you know little things that matter if you're particularly you know you working in in legal services. So we we would have to do some education >> but also we would show them because the legal industry historically has been quite behind other industries in terms of adopting certain media formats technologies although legal technology is very much at the table now and there's lots of data to support that. So, you know, we would just show examples of other industries and other executives and seniors that have actually done this and what it would look like and we we could take take them on that journey. But to your point about what you were saying there, I also say to people, think of a WAV strategy, which is written, audio or video. So, of course, we're doing video and I'm hugely big believer in video is where the growth is and that there's opportunities there and long and short form content. And I know we're speaking off there about jurisdictions and what's working, but if you're trying to just start, you know, maybe you started with the W, the writing, the articling, right? And then sort of maybe you moved into audio and then you've moved into video. So if you're strong, you're a great lawyer and you love writing. Maybe start there. Get comfortable with that. Build up that STR, you know, start getting some community, start getting some positive responsive, and eventually you will grow because a lot of people would have read the book Good to Great by Jim Collins. And it's this flywheel effect. So, I always describe what I'm building with the League This Being podcast as as the a flywheel. So, you start, but the more you bring new and different ideas into your podcast, um you put energy inputs into that flywheel and slowly it starts getting faster faster, you're building more and more momentum, and things start growing and things start happening a lot quicker and you're very kind and saying, you know, we've got um you know, a huge presence right now. But it didn't start like that. But we've been continuously putting new energy inputs and even so much to an event that I ran out here which I know you came to which would be really appreciated and so many other things and so that flywheel continues to go quicker and quicker and quicker and as a result of that more opportunities more things come your way. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I um I think it's also one thing that we need to learn as lawyers and people working a lot behind the desks or in in closed rooms with the experts or in courts and so on is that the client the legal buyer >> don't know me. >> Yeah. >> And they did not see the documents I have written before and they don't know my expertise and they don't know how many cases I won. If I don't speak about it, I don't go out of that courtroom and out of that office and showcase my skills, no one would know if Ahmed is just famous because he's associated with a big law firm behind and he probably is a mediocrity. He's mediocre in the skills or he actually knows what he's talking about. And if I showcase my skills and what I'm what my ideas are, what my values are, um, it it delivers a lot and builds this trust relationship between me and someone behind the camera. And as well with with video content, I think it is very hard to put 100 people in a room in a conference to hear you out, but it's so easy to reach 10,000 people views in one day just with video content. >> And that's working smart. And you know, there's a lot of the attention economy. And again, we were talking about that before. You know, the attention is online. The attention is there. And you can no longer be the best kept secret. years ago and in my late grandfather's um industry, he ran his own law firm, very successful in the 1950s. He used to say to me when we were driving, he he would hear a law firm advertising on the radio in his day. He would say, "They are dead. That law firm is dead. Law firms do not need to advertise on the radio if they're this is back in the 1950s, 1960s, back there. It was all reputation, word of mouth, referral." And of course, that carries weight today. But to get exponential growth, you have to have some visibility. You need to increase that visibility because the more opportunities, the more people know who you are. You build the word you use there, trust, that is such an important word. The more that you share your successes, you share your lessons, your learnings, you're authentic, the more trust you build with that legal buyer and they may not buy within a year, two years, but they're watching and they're following and they're probably referring in the background or they're understanding. And when that time is right, I had a message from my legal recruiting business for and I was I wrote to them in 2019. I got a response back last week when I was in Dubai from them. They they they no reply. You know, I always say fortunes in the follow-up, so I should have followed up anyway, but no reply. And they said, "Hey, can we have a talk about opportunities? I've been seeing what you've been doing." And that's a six-year like dormant, but they're watching in the background. You're educating that buyer or that candidate for me is there. similar to your point. So yeah, you absolutely have to double down on the attention economy with high quality content and share your successes and the more people and more opportunities will come. It gets a little bit hard for people to understand what you just said that a lot of people are watching in the background. So maybe they don't get feedback and I swear >> Yeah. >> I go to Cairo where I don't live. >> Yeah. >> Okay. To attend the legal conference where there's hundred people in the room. I look at all the faces. I know no one but at least five to 10 people come and say, "Hi, we know you. We saw your video." >> And I'm that guy who look at who likes my videos. I just want to know who are following me and who are the lawyers in my network and and following and and watching and and commenting and so on. If they are following or commenting and so on, I would have known them because I I check Yeah. >> all the law firms and everybody who's who's checking me out. But those guys I don't know, but they're watching silently and they're referring me business silently and they know me silently. >> And that is I know it's an overused phrase, but I've done courses on this and promote it. The power of a personal brand. They matter. They matter even more so in an AI tech enabled world where so much of roles can be automated or AI can can come in to a level. You know, I I I learned this from from Pierers Lineia, former Dragon Sten Shark Tank investor in the UK. He talked a lot about the value pyramid and with technology coming in um it's going to take up a lot of the drudgery and work. You can see that in some of the parallegaling work, some of the other legal work and you as a service provider, it doesn't matter if you're a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, an insurer, you need to find a way to stay ahead of this technology as it gets exponentially better in this AI revolution to add value. So through human judgment for strategy, creativity, whatever it is, and if you wrap that into a personal brand around those things that's ahead of technology, you'll stand out and you'll be that thought leader. So you're putting out thought leadership, high value content, helping people with their careers or understanding the law, connecting with people. So you're becoming that key person of influence. You're building that personal brand through collaborating. you're staying ahead of that sort of exponential and that personal brand is getting the hey I know you and you probably never met them before like you said but that carries so much weight your personal brand capital is skyhigh and actually for an hour of your time and then you're repurposing that content putting it out there to loads of people it's a no-brainer >> absolutely yes as a legal recruiter I'm going to ask you this because a lot of our audience would like to know um it's a huge problem at the moment the exploring the AI and using the AI. Everybody uh is trying to get to spend as much as they can on software on on um on on on AI tools and so on. My personal opinion is that the problem is that everybody's investing in the tools or in the technology and a lot of lawyers and law firms are not investing in training of the lawyers. Do you see law firms asking you as a recruiter >> to stress on find us the people who know how to use AI or find us the people who are already um like I don't know experienced or just ready to learn. There's two parts to that. There's yes obviously they they would like the the golden candidate if you like who has the experience that can come in and can be the value ad. But there's also clients, law firms that want us to educate people to say we are going to be investing in training and upskilling and actually that's an attraction to come and join us because certain firms aren't necessarily doing as much investment. So it works it works both ways. My my viewpoint generally um so I I I advise and invest in some legal tech businesses. Um one is Lexidesk which I think is a great voice AI um business for law firm which I encourage people to go and have a look at. It's firstly what do you want? what do you need it to do? So, you know, as a law firm, what audits have you done to start with where you have inefficiencies, where you have um workflow stress, where you have burnout potentially within your people. Actually look at what are the key problems that you're looking to solve and then think about technology rather than chasing shiny shiny objects in oh they've just released this new feature now everyone's got it. what's important to you and what are the things that are going to help you grow because AI is ultimately there as your co-pilot you know it's very smart of Microsoft to it wasn't autopilot they named it co-pilot very strategic in the naming because autopilot just suggested automate stuff this is actually helping you collaborating with you through every process of your AI journey and so that's what I would say to people even from a law firm perspective but if you're working as a lawyer actually a if you're trying to aspire to get a job you need mentors you need to go to events You need to be around people that are producing so you can get upskilled and educated. I'm a big believer in if it's meant to be, it's up to me. You have to take accountability because certain people will say, "Rob, I don't I I don't see much. I don't know how to get AI." Well, it's on you to go out there, network, find people, get opportunities, and upskill yourself. And if you can do that, I think there's opportunities to really progress your career significantly. But don't fall into the shiny object syndrome. And if you're a candidate looking to get more, get yourself listening to podcasts like this, meeting people, mentors, 360 board of mentors. Myself, I have a 360 board of mentors, people ahead of me, people at the same level, and people that perhaps haven't done as much professionally. It's the people beneath me that actually teach me. They are coming through the next generation of like AI developers that have worked with chat GBT, OpenAI. I'm sat in those board meetings. Yes, I might be an investor in the organization, but I'm learning from these developers. I'm learning about the technology. I'm understanding how it works and I'm humbling myself. So, I would encourage everyone to treat every day as a a school day in this AI revolution because things are changing fast and if you think you know everything, you could potentially be caught short. >> I'm going to ask you a little bit of a practical question. What do you do? How how do you leverage the AI yourself when it comes to the podcasting or when it comes to the recruitment? Do you have AI tool that screened TVs for you? >> Yeah, absolutely. There's there's lots of tools we can do for that. And you'll know with the podcasting as well, there's great things from transcripts, show notes, um key phrases you can pick out, even now some of the AI platforms for for for video editing. We still have human in the loop. >> Yeah. >> With um you know, the final touch, but a lot of um particularly on some of the online podcasting we do as well versus the inerson, we'll use a platform like Riverside FM. Um they have loads of AI capabilities which can just really shortcut a lot of the production. And so yeah, I'm a massive advocate of using as much AI as possible. Um because I'm looking for efficiencies. You know, the only thing we can't get more more of is time, right? So we need to be really kind of intentional with the tools that we're using. And so yeah, we use lots of AI tools throughout. Um >> even from like meetings to schedulings to everything, any part of the process that can potentially be automated or improved or quicker, we're looking at tools. Let's forget the podcasting for uh one or two more questions. I'm going to push a little bit on the recruitment side. I personally saw the last two years uh quite a big flow of legal professionals coming from the UK who are looking for jobs here. Um what's happening in the UK legal market? >> Well, I I think there's a couple of obvious things that have always happened to start with. Firstly, the England and Wales qualifications carries through to the UAE. So, typically law firms in the UAE, a lot of the international law firms that we would work with in London, sort of magic circle, US law firms that have done well and have grown over here are of course quite attracted to England and Wales qualified associates coming over here because they're used to working where they're situated on complex multi-jurisdictional transactions, disputes, and they've been advising, you know, across the US and Singapore and so forth and so on. So I think the fact that England and world's qualified lawyers can take the qualification and practice here that's always been a win. Of course the financial incentive is also you know attractive to a lot of lawyers coming over here for the tax-free salaries etc etc. But more than that, I think there's um Dubai has a real reputation across the UK market that it's buzzing, it's thriving. The opportunity here it is. You know, you look at Dubai, Miami, these types of cities, they are really going at pace, particularly when it comes to entrepreneurship, when it comes to opportunities. And yes, people may argue, yes, it's getting saturated now, but still there are opportunities. I think we were mentioning as well, you're saying, look, there's a lot of legal service providers in the UA, but still there's enough to go around. So I think people from our side of the in in in the UK are seeing that there's huge opportunity over here and potentially to stay here. I think historically Dubai has been seen a very transient um destination for international people. I've got lots of friends now contacts that started as legal council now general council have families here don't have plans to go back home. I've had people that were trainees who have then qualified and then moved out here and now partners in firms again don't have. So I think Dubai is attracting keeping people here which I think is a really interesting trend as well and people are spotting that now that it's becoming a little less transient with more people staying in the region or wanting to stay in the region or commit to the region and so people um yeah are very excited by it you know um the UE legal market in general not just Dubai have seen the biggest number of dual qualified lawyers that I've ever seen in the whole world I've never seen >> any jurisdiction that had that number of qualified lawyers who do civil and common law or able to go to court in the UAE as well or in civil law jurisdictions in general or understand the system and understand the common law as well. >> Do you think this dual qualification is going to be a privilege for a lot of people will be an advantage for them? >> 100%. And the likelihood is some of those individuals they have the language skills as well. So they probably could speak English, Arabic and French or all three, >> you know, and so yeah, it's probably dual qualified plus language skills. So also able to draft in different languages as well as various different things. So yeah, I do I think it's a huge advantage. And I think also now if you're looking to come over because it is competitive, you need to have a bit of a USP. you need to have something that's going to attract those law firms to hire you versus other talent that's perhaps already existing because there is quite a good talent pool already that's come over within the region and also over the years. So if you're coming in from the UK, you need to have something that's going to be a real unique selling point or a point of difference. And so that might be that you actually have been developing clients. You you can showcase that you are quite good on the business development side of things. you have been generating ahead of your peak your your levels of experience. So you could potentially come in and help really let's say crypto is everywhere right now right you know the crypto practice or the web 3 or the metaverse you know maybe they've been establishing that in UK have some contacts so you could come over here and help grow because the one thing about Dubai it's not shrinking it's growing and so there's so much if you can showcase that you could fit in that fastmoving growth environment I think you would um do well I think BD is such an important skill set that lawyers junior early on should get their heads around and trying to be doing as much as possible. Yeah, guys, if you know me very well, if you have ever seen this podcast before this episode, I think a lot of people will see me for the first time because I'm interviewing you. I think there's enough business for everybody. And just to to walk the talk, I'm inviting the biggest podcaster here in the Middle East while I'm uh trying to grow my podcast as well. But there really enough business for everybody. So people who are dual qualified, people want to come to the UAE from anywhere in the world. There's still opportunities there. The market still needs more because the city is growing. If we're talking about Dubai or Abu Dhabi, the country is growing in general. The Middle East is doing absolutely fantastic in terms of opportunities and business in general. And it is kind of the time that attracts the most talent from all over the world. And don't let anyone tell you that there's not enough business or it's saturated or there's no opportunities. You have the chance to shine yourself. If you know what you're looking for and if you're able to deliver it and put the message out there, I know how to do this. And one of the um ways to do that I guess is to contact uh the legally speaking podcast and try your best to convince Rob to put you on the show and let's see if he accept or not. But I think in general doing business development and showing case your skills and so on would be very important and I think um Rob can confirm that. Um what do you think are the fundamental things that lawyers should think of when it comes to personal branding? >> Yeah. Well, I think firstly on this is a very intentional podcast from both of our sides, right? So it's a great example. You host a podcast, you're going to come on to my show, I've come on to your show, we're going to both grow, right? Because we'll share it to new audiences and it's a good crossbination. It's a good collaboration. So for lawyers thinking about growing a personal brand, I think the number one thing, I know it's an overused word, is don't try and copy what other people are doing. Be yourself. It's so so important. So it's very easy now to go on to LinkedIn or to go on to these platforms and say they're doing well. I'll just do exactly what they're doing. Copy and paste. Unfortunately, that will not work. Like we both have our own shows, but we have different styles, different formats, different ways of working. So important. So I think firstly, if you're starting a personal brand is to think about push yourself to be you. I know it sounds very very very easy and silly but people wear the mask and people don't want the mask anymore. We're in no longer in this B2B B TOC world. We're in this H to H human to human connection, right? That's really what's going to connect. I talked about the value per that human judgment and strategy. You need to find a way of getting comfortable with being yourself and presenting that self everywhere you go online and offline now. And the more you can do that and start with that your personal brand will exponentially grow because the way platforms are gearing up now you don't need to have yes okay both of us have a large number of followers within our networks and yes that's good and it's great but platforms just want to provide and boost Tik Tok for example if you create a good video they'll give you the reach they'll give you that that that boost and you'll grow through that so firstly starting out if you're a lawyer and you think you have to be perfect and you have to get absolutely everything right and you're never going to be able to create a personal brand because you can't get over that perfectionism. I would challenge you to say done is better than perfect. Perfect never gets done. Just start. Take inspiration from your content. Take inspiration from other people. But be yourself. And then think about what I mentioned before a strategy. So what are you most comfortable with? Is it writing? Is it audio? Is it video? Could you create a weekly blog? Could you create some some fun articles? Could you start appearing on some short video clips and putting them out there? and think about who your ideal avatar is because you're not going to appeal to everyone. So for me, I'm building my personal brand because I want to attract people when it comes to legal careers. I'm looking for legal tech investments. I'm looking for entrepreneurs. I'm looking for people in and around the world of legal. So I talk about a TOI, which is a topic of influence. So my topic of influence with my content is very highly geared towards legal careers. So if you're a corporate lawyer, you're probably looking to network with entrepreneurs. Maybe you're looking to network with other corporate lawyers that are very busy that could refer you business. So, you want to be thinking about content themes or stories. Facts tell, but actually stories sell. The more you can authentically share your stories with people, they'll connect with an audience. That's the avatar you want to be talking to. Don't get too caught up about I need to go viral. I need this, that, and the other. Because back to your point about people are watching in the background, and we talked about before, you'll be amazed. Maybe you've only got a few likes on one post, but you'll actually probably get a DM that's super valuable to you for someone who's been in the background watching and really admiring what you're doing, and they will probably be the client or person you can connect with and actually do the business with. So, don't get too caught up on vanity metrics. Focus on your avatar, focus on your messaging, focus on who you want to do business with. Get over yourself and just be yourself and your personal brand will will grow. I want to tell you a funny story about me and one of my u very very old friends school friend you know I think after 10 years of being in the UAE he uh text me and hey I'm uh I'm coming to Dubai in uh in a few days I would love to see you I know you're here at that time I didn't start any media or any social presence or so on but I was working really hard and I would built my firm already and so on and he said um and by the way. If you know a lawyer in Dubai, please let me know because I want to start up my business and I have a lot of questions. So, within your network, you live there for 10 years. Maybe you can tell me if you know a lawyer. And I was shocked. I was shocked. I'm a lawyer. My dad is a lawyer. My three sisters are lawyers. I've been here for 10 years doing law. And this guy who's cool mate doesn't know I'm a lawyer. >> Yeah. >> Come to his brain. like okay is it his fault or mine >> it's really my fault it's not it's no one's fault but I did not show enough that I'm a lawyer I didn't he is asking for something that I'm doing it's core business for me I do structuring of of companies I advise investors and entrepreneurs and this guy is one of them and he didn't know >> I told him like you know what let's meet when I'm here and I will tell you all about it. You don't need any referrals. But then there was a realization and then I started. So that it was my start. That's the entrepreneur in you as well. I have to say because you you you took self accountability. I I do think it is your fault actually. I think it was your fault that you weren't educating but you realize that and then as a result of it you've been intentional and then hopefully as a result of that through not only that network and all the other ones you've got opportunities. Yeah. The reality is you can't be the best kept secret anymore. Like I said, you have to let people go out there and educate. Because someone said to me very early off on, Rob, more generally about sales and marketing, if you don't make the offer to someone, someone else will. And if you get your head into that mindset, if you don't make the offer to someone or you don't put yourself out there, someone else will and they'll probably take your lunch. And we're in a competitive space right now. So, the more you can put yourself out there with things that you want to talk about that are going to attract your community and clients, the better. But I love that you actually the penny dropped and then you took action because maybe maybe that conversation didn't happen and maybe as a result of that >> Yeah. >> years and years more could have gone past where you were just, you know, assuming this is what I do. Everyone should know what I do. But you can't be in your own four walls anymore. >> 100%. And and to be very honest, I did not start immediately going out there doing videos. I started by writing on LinkedIn, writing on Facebook, seeing where it works. And then I realized what I'm writing on comments is not enough. I will write articles. my will and then realized it's not enough. I need to write articles on a website that is published with my photo with my name with my law firm on it. I tried my best couldn't work. So I started the jury spot the the the platform and I put my articles. It was not enough. I invite other lawyers and it grows. It is a process and by time I realized okay now I'm not too shy to be on camera and I did it and it went on. You mentioned a very nice word that me and you are actually very active in that field. You mentioned communities >> and that word makes a lot of sense and I will tell you also my experience when I started Emirates Liga network few years ago. Um the whole purpose in the beginning was to collaborate to brainstorm to be updated and to make more friends in the same society because there was no an official one that gather all everybody. But speaking of the on on on the same point that you need to show off there are so many people in the network now our network is all 600 people probably 200 are known and there are 400 silent >> very smart brilliant amazing lawyers some of them are silent because they they're not used to leverage on the network or maybe maybe a little bit more more less than that But a lot of those silent people who are members of a community are not seen and people don't know them. Those 200 out of the 600 who are very vocal. Yeah. >> They get all the business. They get all the attention. They get all the invitation to podcasts and TV and and articles and so on. And the rest are as good. But if you don't make the offer, someone else will. I'll repeat it. And the reality is those other 400 are probably busy being successful now. Yeah. Yeah. >> But the reality is one day they may not be so busy or so successful and so they don't see maybe I don't need to be doing this right now. Whereas I say networking community initiative should be part of your daily. It should be a habit. Should just be a habit because >> to be very honest I'm sorry to interrupt you but if you're bigger than Pepsi and Coca-Cola stop. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Literally like sorry Pepsi Cola and Coca-Cola and these companies are advertising every day. >> Yeah. They're still Yeah. advertising literally billions and millions. Um, so I think though to the to the to the to the 400 that they're missing out on maybe more opportunities, more things that are going out there or maybe they're saying, "I'm so busy right now, but this needs to be a priority." It's like with the personal branding, you know, it's all well and good saying, "Well, what's it going to give me? What's this, that, and the other?" But the reality is you and I are quite good social proof that this stuff works and commercially works. It's not just vanity play. You know, I'm um you know, through through some of the workings I've done, I've signed some of the biggest deals when it comes to commercial work. And I think >> it should be seen as a habit and getting your head around it as a new way of getting into communicate communities, adding value to communities, networking, information sharing, um cross-pollinating, collaborating, all of this good stuff will come from it. And I remember my first ever job um the manager said well first he said time to lean time to clean. I was like leaning and I was going to be cleaning the bathroom. He's like okay. But then he said aie which is attitude is everything. And that I've took to me throughout my whole journey. And I love that you talked again about the scenario of your school friend. Like you have to take the accountability for everything. Even if it's not your fault, it is your fault. Like you know if it's this this thing bad has happened it is my fault. and have that attitude to be like, right, I'm going to invest time, energy, and effort in this or I'm going to turn this around or I'm going to do this and just be really intentional about it. But yeah, I just big believer in attitude is so important. So the attitude of those 400 needs to be more like, actually, I know I'm busy or I know I've got this other stuff going on, but I'm going to dedicate 10 minutes. >> Everyone has got 10 minutes. The busiest person on the planet has got 10 minutes to do something that might help them grow even more. What do you remember of the biggest mistakes you did throughout the your career as a recruiter or as a podcaster? >> This is a fivehour long talk about one. >> Yeah. Well, I think the biggest mistake actually was not taking enough risk early. >> Yeah. Enough. And I know that's talking to a legal audience particularly that word risk is is a bit oh I know but actually if I look at my growth particularly last year 2025 I chucked everything into my personal brand and my business development and my community I I I went around the world I 10x I said the year I want to 10x and I really think the opportunities off the back of that for my own podcast through other business ventures other investments other recruitment mandates that have come from that I was really really intentional So, I think my biggest mistake was playing safe too much very early on. And I know it's easy to say here, but if you're looking to do something and you have a goal, say your goal is to do something within a year, shrink that to wanting to do it within like six weeks, like really stress, like really be ambitious, take risks because um you know, life isn't about luck. It's the more luck you get through, the more risk you take. And I think I wish I was told that early enough. my biggest I was just doing the certain things and that's why the podcast I stayed up in 2016 it was 28 year I had two years of not taking enough risk or thinking about new ways to market to advertise to get out there and that's quite a lot of time in business time to to sort of get traction I was doing a lot of the oldfashioned ways so yeah I think not taking enough risk was um a big big mistake and then the other mistake was also not having enough quality mentors in my network so big advocate for mentors big advocate for being humble um not not not knowing everything. And so without having um good quality mentors, I probably wouldn't have been able to get as far as I've gone. So a mistake very early on was not having that that that network, as I say, that 360 board of mentors around you because also running a business is tough. >> Yeah. >> You know, this is all hopefully positive content and positive vibes, but most days >> I don't want to swear on your show, you are eating a lot of the brown stuff. You know, you've got problems, you've got a lot of things fire, you're firefighting, you're trying to overcome things, etc., etc., etc. But if you got these great people around you, you're one phone call away. That that can really help ease the pain when you're going through those tough times. >> Agree with everything you say. I mean running a business and trying as well to work on your personal brand is kind of a is very hard equation to to play with and um and um yeah sometimes you become for me at least I become the CEO the manager for the operations and technical sometimes finance BD babysitter yeah parent dad one thing actually I'd like to share with your audience coming back more directly to your question is um I think it's a mistake I made um I'll be quite loose with my language is making sure that you do business or collaborate with people that have the same values as you not the same goals okay you can both want to start the same business and you both may want to exit that business for 10 million and that might be the goal but if the values of the way you want to do that business aren't aligned i.e. We want to someone might want to hire and fire and be very aggressive. And you might want to nurture and develop people and look after people and really protect them. So I think a biggest mistake I've made is working with people that have the same goal but maybe not the same values. And similar values are okay, but if they don't have different values or the way that they operate, that can create a lot of stress, a lot of tension, and potentially a lot of heartache. So I think one of the mistakes I've done before is falling into the trap of working with people that maybe we have the same vision but the way we get there is very different. Difference of opinion is good >> and I encourage that but the core values of like empathy or whatever it might be that are important to you I think they're important to look for. I put you on the spot tell me what happened without telling me without without telling me what happened. So let's put it this way. What was the difference or what was the value that you realized is not aligned? Not necessarily um um well empathy and respect of other people I think is I'm a big believer in any and I hope I'm put myself on the spot. Anyone who's worked with me or for me would say nice things if I wasn't in the room about them. I can't say that with everyone I've worked with. they would say the same thing because I think my late grandfather used to say live respected die regretted and I've always taken that into business. So, everyone I've worked with, brands, law firms, etc., etc., that's important to your reputation actually to me matters more than what's in my bank account. And I know that's very easy to say, but that is very, very fundamentally important because we can all go out and make more money, but we can also ruin a reputation quite quickly. And so, I think I learned very early on that I wanted to to try and be respectful for people, empathetic to people, and that made we made a little less money. That meant we look made a little bit less money. Um, but I remember how I'd be respected and known and my legacy and things that matter to me because I'm trying to carry on a family legacy in law. I I tell the story actually if I could segue just slightly of I mentioned my late grandfather ran his own law firm and every year we would go to his house um around Christmas time and you know I would go through the house and there'll be hordes and hordes of Christmas cards there from various people and my grandfather retired say 5 10 years way after he sold out of his law firm and there'd be hordes and hordes of Christmas cards and I'd say to him who are these cards from I you don't have that many friends do he's like no I don't have that many friends I was like so who are they And he would say they're from former clients, former generations beneath me, them clients and generations beneath them clients writing to me every year thanking me and my firm for the work that we've done for them, the impact it's had on their family, their children, their grandchildren, their great grandchildren. And the penny dropped. I thought live respected die regretted. What a legacy he had built many years after retiring. people took the time, energy, and effort to write to him. And I thought, if I go into business, I want to have that reputation, that legacy of people say, but I thought, what if I can digitalize that? What if I can do podcasting? What if my daughter, because now my late grandfather has passed, all of those legacy, all of that manual. I can't trace back any of that. Only some of the minor thoughts that I have. But now I can probably hopefully do good in a digital capacity through podcasting, internet, AI, all of this stuff. So maybe one day my daughter if she cares to can go there and be like that did quite good stuff. Check out this video. He was on it was in Dubai on the jurist talking about this that and the other. And so yeah I think that was um I know it was a bit of a segue but that's kind of like values matter to me in business. I think that's >> this is not a segue. This is core. This is exactly what we're looking for and the message that I would always try to deliver. Every single guest who came to our show at a certain point of time, they're going to tell me a story that ethics played a very big part of the career. >> Yeah. >> You can be successful. You can be rich. >> You can't work for the top law firm in the world. You'll never get enough respect and recognition if you're not high with ethics. This is what I learned in my dad's law firm. This is what I learned in my career. This is what I learned today from you and is repeated and that is a message that I would love to rely to everyone watching and listening to us. >> Absolutely. Yeah, >> man. with this. I'm very proud of having you and I'm very happy. U conversation is very smooth and I'm looking forward but I would like to show and talk about one of the very interesting um events and we talked about creativity and how people do business in general. Um, here we have Robert Hannah, the famous host of Legally Speaking podcast and a week ago I attended one of the perfect uh networking events was a paddle tournament and I had a passport for it courtside conversations by uh Robert and um >> Yep. The PR by Whitney. >> Exactly. By Whitney and and Robert. It was amazing. And I say maybe this is more for the people who are funding um networking events and the people who are organizing them. Enough with the afterwork drinks. They're amazing. They're great. Enough with the coffee. Enough with the conferences. Let's do some more events that meaningful that put the people out of the office that they actually make uh real connections and real friendships and at least make a 5050% of let's keep the traditional conferences and education and thought leadership. Amazing. We love them. Let's keep the afterwork drinks and coffee. We need them. But more and more events like this where we can play some paddle, we can make friends and have genuine uh conversations. And thank you very much, Robert, for having me uh on this event. I really enjoyed a lot. >> That mean that means a lot. And I I say generally we're we're we're drowning in information and craving wisdom. But with regards to this, we're drowning in events but craving creativity. And so when Whitney and I came together, we thought about, you know, let's just talk about last 5 10 years of our professional lives. Talk through some of the events we've attended. And it was the same ro same road map, right? And like to the point about podcasting and getting in early, we thought, what if we could modernize professional networking and take people out of an environment where they can play a sport which pretty much most people can play. And there was a mix of abilities at paddle. And we had a DJ. We had food. We had an afterdark piece. We had a bit of competition cuz lawyers like a bit of competition as well, but friendly. And yeah, the guards would drop when the endorphins are up. And then what about maybe some after after playing podcast like almost you play a game of football you get interviewed you play a game of paddle you get interviewed you get those insights of people you you know almost catching their breath and they're speaking authentically because they can't think of you know and so the whole concept worked really really well and yeah we're going to drive that as a as a global movement we launched here in Dubai I'm a big fan of Dubai I've been very intentional with my trip out here this this this year and the passport you very kindly showed that's going to be our utility again because there's so much out there People are part of groups, they're part of communities, they go to events, they have all of these things. People are busy and they're time poor. So with that passport, there was some stamps in there which we gave to people which is their location, our courtside and paddle pro who we're leveraging with, but with that they will get access to things in the future. There might be golden tickets they get access to. There might be discounts in merchandise with lifestyle brands, with vitamin brands. They might get mer various different incentives. might give them access to key people of influence in the industry that they're looking for. So there there's a there's a utility attached the I always think of what's the so what? >> Everyone's doing stuff but so what you know you start a podcast so what what what's the value? What's in it for me? And so we're going to really kind of focus hard on that concept and that's why it's a passport because we're taking it around the world. We'll be back here in Dubai maybe Abu Dhabi and do it. So yeah definitely if folks want to find a new different fun way of uh networking definitely check out Courtside Conversations. >> I have my passport and I'm ready to fly with Legally Speaking podcast. Please guys follow Rob and legally speaking podcast and maybe you get lucky to join one of the uh courtside conversations one day. Um I mean speaking on the same sense last year we did with Emirates legal network uh uh Emirates legal nights where we took all the lawyers to the desert to ride horses and so on. So this year we're going to repeat that again on the 8th of February with Emirates Legal Network. We are going to go to the desert for horse ride. We'll have two groups, the beginners and the uh advanced people. I will join the beginners. Joking joining the advanced. And uh and and we'll have one full hour of desert. We're going to see uh with the with the sunset in the Dubai desert is going to be amazing. We'll have afterwards dinner all of us and drinks and it will be an amazing night. So please join us if you can. I'm sorry that you will not be here to join at the legal nights. >> I know it sounds great. I'm genuinely gutted about that. But hopefully another time when I'm back over. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Once again, thank you so much for coming here. It was a pleasure. The conversation went very well and I think we will uh welcome you again in Dubai soon, right? >> Absolutely. Yeah, it's been a real pleasure. I'm a big fan of your show. Love what you're doing. Love the community you're building. Love your energy. And I'll just leave it with like my favorite quote I say to everyone is the magic you're looking for is in the work you're avoiding. If you've heard something today that's inspired you, a thought, an action, go and take action on it because probably the other side of that action is what you're looking for. So the magic you're looking for is in the work you're avoiding. Thanks for having me. >> Beautiful. Thank you.