Today I have Akbar Ali. This is an international city. There's a big British population here. What was the reason that you chose to [music] do legal services? You always try to be as objective as you can. Do you see a pattern in the problems or the struggles that they suffer from? The UAE [music] has many free zones. The UK has a very settled tax regime. It is what it is. It's a different set of laws, [music] different jurisdiction. getting the right tax advice is all considered by tax authorities [music] on both sides and it's not just the d registering the one territory it's registering in a different territory as well. Why did you [music] sign this? And he said I was told it's standard even if it's standard why did you not read it? Why don't you save yourself so [music] much money later on by investing few hours in your knowledge? Good morning Dubai. Back to the jurist podcast. Today I have Akar Ali. He's the managing partner of Ali Legal in UK and his partner with Davidson and Co. in Dubai. welcome and have a very good morning. How are you? Good morning. I'm very well. Thanks so much for having me. Welcome to the UAE as well. I know that you just recently uh joined the UAE legal family. Yeah, that's right. So, it's getting towards a year. I've been doing bits and bobs in and out of the UAE prior to coming here, but now I'm very much here most of the time, maintaining my London business as well. So going between the two jurisdictions and trying to find the bridge between the two places. I think this I call it the UEK corridor. There's a lot of legal um professionals coming in and out from the region and there a lot of exchange of legal expertise and for many years there were a lot of UK based lawyers who are practicing here remotely with the common law uh courts and so on. Why do you see that this is important for your career to have a base in the UAE? Well, I think this territory is you describe it as a corridor and I genuinely perceive it as a as an actual corridor rather than one that's just in name. This is an international city. There's a big British population here and a lot of different parts of the world interact in the UAE. So I was finding actual client matters going from um property to business to family personal related matters uh actually straddling the two jurisdictions. So it has become uh a necessity really for my business to expand to this region. >> And you have a lot of clients already in the region because you said you've been already in and out for a year. So you have a a bit of a client base or are you focusing on the new ones because there's kind of a wave. >> Yeah, absolutely. And that that wave is it's certainly in the growth phases right now. At times it changes. Um I have a personal practice I would say that's developing. So I have one or two instructions in the UAE. Uh Davidson and Co's practice has existed here for uh almost two decades I believe. So I'm absorbing in their client base as well, working with the existing partners there that have been here for uh a very long time and developing my own business as well. So uh I would say it's in a different an earlier stage I would say compared to Allegal in London which is a mature business and well on its way. Um but I can already see the path towards equalizing those two practices. >> I know that you did not start as a lawyer. So I want to take you back a little bit with the career. So I want to know what made you I mean how did you start this? I know but I want you to tell it to the uh audience but I want you to afterwards tell me what was the reason that you chose to do legal services. It's something I actually speak about quite a lot. It's something I'm quite proud of. Um I, you know, my children would have heard this story time and time again. You know, he's telling that story about he, you know, he sold gas and electric or he's had businesses outside of law. And you know, with me that is the case. I'm somebody who I think at times can appear like somebody that has had a um a very straight path into uh the legal business or the the partnership of a law firm. Um and often times people do. I appear that way now because of my practice, because of the work I do, because of the presence that I have in the legal industry. But I didn't always have that. It's taken me 15 years to hone my craft and to develop my practice to where it is today. And that journey uh didn't start out in a red brick university. I went to Liverpool John Moors uh which is was a polytenic. It's actually a fantastic university and delivers a great service. But I specifically had to go to that university because I already had children by that point. So that university was offering a part-time degree that I could work alongside. It wasn't an option for me to just full-time study at that time because I already had children. So I had to earn a little bit of money. I had to do a little bit of study, blend all the things together and scrap together really my uh career and my development. So I have had jobs which are non-law related. I've sold gas and electric door to door. I've worked in call centers. Um, I've worked in shops and various different things. Uh, then I've had legal jobs business-wise as well. I had businesses outside of law in the early stages. And really something that I'd want to get across to the younger audience and people who are trying to build a career or a business in 2026. I would say in those earlier years for me it felt like those things were my disadvantage. Those disadvantages have turned into my advantages. So I now genuinely feel that I'm able to service clients better because I understand businesses. I understand careers, industries outside of the law and that informs my legal practice. Now, to your question about why I ended up picking law, um, that's an interesting topic as well, because um, and I'll be I'm just going to be honest with you. I'm not to, you know, >> speak around this subject in a in a in a superficial way. I'm going to really um hopefully the audience can derive some benefit through my honesty. Um I was doing okay in a non-educational setting because in my very early years I hadn't been consistent with education. I had developed an overconfidence about taking exams which um backfired and then I failed a set of exams. I left formal education. This is what then led me to the jobs I did which w which weren't law. From there I had this sort of uh I would say a chip on my shoulder. I had a chip on my shoulder that people are now looking at me as somebody even though I might you know earn a reasonable amount of money. I'm doing okay. But you know he he can't pass those exams. He's not academic. He's not intelligent in a in an academic sense. And that was something that did uh keep me up at night. It didn't make me feel good. Um that chip on my shoulder was getting heavier and heavier. So then I sort of my my reasons for going back to it was to prove people wrong was to show people that actually I can do it. And that can be treated as a negative sentiment sometimes, but I don't think it's entirely negative because it did spare me on to do the thing that I should have been doing, albeit for the wrong reasons. >> So, what age did you go back to it at? >> Uh, 20. So, my son was born when I was 20. My daughter was born when I was 21. So in I would say my towards my late 20s I was then doing a legal certificate with the open university and then slowly found my way back to uh Liverpool Drums where I did my formal uh degree and actually visiting the university to do so. So I've started for the wrong reasons and it's only later in life that I've reflected and thought well actually I shouldn't be taking a particular path or doing a particular thing because other people perceive it a certain way. What's important is how do I perceive it? So I've ended up staying in law after finding myself in it for what I now see as the wrong reasons and what I'd encourage younger people. You know, my children now are teenagers, and I would never want them to commit themselves to a career or a business because they thought I or anybody else felt they should be doing that. So, I I've ended up staying because I reflected upon, you know, what is my career, what is the work. I think it's specifically corporate law for me as well. The if I was doing other areas of law and sometimes my practice can be quite generalist, it can stem into other areas of law. sectors that I'm not doing as as often. I do consider it to not be exactly what I want to be doing, but I am able to reason and rationalize that none of us get to do 100% of what we want to do. So, I think, you know, if 80% of the time, 70% of the time, I can do what I enjoy, um, then I'm doing well. That's my kind of um room for error as it were um and the standard that I place on it and the the the rationalization. If I'm doing that then uh you know then I'm winning and corporate law is really what's kept me here. I enjoy doing the deals. I enjoy drafting the contracts. I enjoy doing the negotiations uh the structuring that takes place around it. So that's why I've stayed. But why I came into it is not uh you know something that's just how it went. >> I mean it's a honestly I I it's a rough start to have a child as at 20 years old. Don't you think? >> Yeah. Uh that's that's interesting as well because everyone always says that. Everyone says it was rough. Everyone says, you know, have children. I've had nothing but joy with children. And I find it fascinating because they may have been the reason that I stopped playing PlayStation and started studying, did really well in business, and now have a relatively comfortable professional life of uh you know, it's and and it's a good life. And I do attribute a lot of that to um that desire to make sure that you know I deliver for these children. I'm accountable to these children. They they're they're my jailers in some way. They're my they're my uh the body that keeps me ultimately accountable for what I do. And I've had a lot of joy. you know, we've uh we've been to theme parks, we've played in the garden, we've done sports, we've so I my um and I've been a very present full-time father. Uh that's always how I've seen it and I've never I've never felt hard done by by that. I remind me I I will remind you of something that probably forgot. We met a year ago >> and uh we shared a panel and you were moderating the panel and we were talking about technology and AI and um your son was there in the audience. Okay. And uh one of the questions that you throw at me was uh do the next generation have a chance considering the development of the AI and how things go? So I I I I remember my answer and I um I just find it fascinating that during a conference and during a legal talk and technology talk you actually resonate immediately or connect immediately with the real life scenario because your son is there you're asking a very nice right question and I can repeat my answer very quickly that >> I think the future is uh is is brighter and it's better and exactly as introduction of any technology uh the next generation, your son, my son who's a little bit younger, um will benefit a lot, but they would just need to learn it. But I'm very happy with this memory that just popped up now because it connects a lot with what you're saying. You're a very responsible father. You've been responsible for um children from a very very young age. Talking about you, not them. And um and and does that change how you look at your practice? Do you connect more to clients who have children because you want to protect them? You want to make everything right for them. Does it make any change or effect in your work? >> So the memory you've I asked you that question on that panel discussion, now you're going to throw it back at me and put me on the spot asking the same question. Um okay. It it does. I mean, I I I think you always try to be as objective as you can and as uh distilled in your approach to your practice. Um as fair about these things as well as you can be, but it's only natural. Um I I do naturally resonate with uh men who have become fathers, who have children. There's a uh there's a commonality there. There's there's things we share. There's things we know that other, you know, people who don't have children can't know. And then it does come into the legal practice a bit as well. You know, this idea of succession and, you know, you're I a lot of business owners don't have their eye on the exit. In the same way, a lot of individuals don't have their eye on the end of life and they're planning around that. And what is common between those two things is it is absolutely coming. I think it's the only certainty that we have that it will end. So, it does have a real relevance for me because I have to talk to business owners when they're saying to me, you know, we're buying the 10th business um in the 10th year in a row. Um I have to say to them to what end, you know, what is the purpose? What is the objective here? And do you have kids? And do they inherit? Do they come into your business? Are they capable of coming into your business? are they ready to do this? And how sometimes you end up finding yourself, you know, are you counseling? Are you um are you fathering other people's children for them as well? And you become I have some relationships with my clients where I'm a a very very close trusted advisor to them and their their children have done work experience in my office. they've spent time with my children as well and there's that natural symbiotic um upbringing that that they go through. Um so there is that natural you do resonate in these situations. We're human at the end of the day. We're not the AI >> programs. Um and that may be to our detriment at times and >> and it may be at times to our human nature. You're an expat yourself and you just moved to the UAE and of course you've been coming in and out but what are the main struggles that expats whether professionals or um business owners coming specifically from the UK to the UAE to establish themselves have do you see a pattern in the problems or the struggles that they um suffer from? Uh yeah, I do. So I can distill that down to a couple of discreet things. One is business setup, one is tax. They work completely different here. Um the UK doesn't have uh free zones as it were. The UAE has many free zones and the UK has a very um settled tax regime. And the UAE has um either no tax regime or a um >> very young one. >> A young one and and developing one. Yeah. >> Um, and that that's ever changing and a lot of people, you know, VAT, for example, that's been introduced here in the UAE now. Um, in the UK, business owners are very used to dealing with VAT accounts. Um, they're used to the phrasiology around it. They're used to the the numericics around it, how them cash flow works around VAT. They're used to managing VAT um, accounts. So in some ways they can actually make a reasonable contribution to this jurisdiction because it's now starting to look like back home. But one thing I do see if I'm to pick one thing uh is setting up a business in a way that isn't going to cater for what they want to do later. An example of that is a a company that involves data processing globally that is set up in a free zone that is not DIC that is not ADGM is going to have a very challenging set of data privacy laws when you compare them against safe harbor principles in America when you compare them against GDPR in Europe And if there's processing or data privacy challenges within a business that's structured outside of DIC or ADGM. Now DIC and ADGM as you well know they don't adopt directly these laws. Yes. But it's quite persuasive. It's quite well mirrored. You get the same look and feel of the statute books in both places. But if you go into the other free zones now you're in federal law. And the federal law in the UAE is um it is what it is. It's a different set of law. It's a different jurisdiction. But in that example that I have given of uh data laws, it it doesn't match up well. So it's sensible if you have a company that you're going to be doing a lot of data priv processing and you're doing it globally to be in DIC or ADGM for that reason. Now that's just one discrete example. There's also, you know, how are you taking in investment? Are you doing an exit? Is it strategic? Is it private equity? Is it VC? What sector you're in? All these things. I think with the experience that I have and the kinds of advisers that I work with on a regular basis, we all know that this is how it needs to be settled with that five or 10 year thing in mind that's coming in the future. Um, but a lot of people fall down at the very beginning on that first hurdle. They set it up wrong and the prevention is just so much easier than the cure that comes later. The amount of engagements I have seen early on in my UAE practice where it's um rectification work. Rectification legal work is fixing problems that didn't need to have existed. >> Cost a lot of money. >> Yeah. Costs a lot of money, a lot of time. And even the lawyers, you know, we're all busy here. We've all got work. We don't need to create more work where there is none. >> Even lawyers look at these engagements coming in, rectification engagements where you say, "I could have done that much easier, much cheaper, much earlier, and it didn't need to become this. Now I've got to fix all this." >> Right? You know, I few days ago I was sitting with one of my um was was just a consultation call and um sorry meeting and I had a very very tough franchise agreement where my client broke every single rule in it, you know, and he has a legal notice from the uh the other party and um I just asked him like why did you sign this. And he said, >> I was told it's standard. >> And I told him, okay, even if it's standard, why did you not read it? >> He said, I read it. It seems good. And I think I interpret all the actions that you interpreted as a breach in a different way. I think I did not do a breach. I was just, you know, being smart about stuff. And I say like, okay, you you needed maybe 2 3 hours, 4 hours of legal advice before you sign that contract >> or at least if it's a standard and it's a take it or leave it, you just understand what are your obligations in the contract before you execute and you do so much breach. Now you have millions of dams as penalties and you have a lawsuit running and chasing you. to have a principal in the agreement who's so upset with you. Why don't you save yourself so much money later on by investing few hours in knowledge in just understanding and this is what I think a lot of your a lot of the people in the example I I was just throwing um need to do and that when they come new to the region they probably need to ask someone who knows the UAE very well and at the same time coming from a background a jurisdiction that they the same language and understand each other. >> Yeah. >> Do you see a lot of new businessmen or experts coming from the UK falling in the same mistake? >> Yeah, absolutely. So those um engagements that I've seen and the examples that I have given that's where that all stems from. So it's from that community of and these are some of these people are very mature very good business people in their in their jurisdiction and then they they come to the UAE. I'm sure it happens in other territories globally as well. They don't understand the landscape. They don't understand the frameworks. They don't understand the law and how how it all sort of stitches together. Um and then mistakes are made and extremely costly mistakes. So yeah, I do absolutely see that and this is part of why my practice now finds itself straddling these two regions because I am able to prevent a lot of um uh difficulty that can that can arise later. uh whether that's through contract drafting or making some strategic decisions early to cater for something that will will come up later or structuring structuring something well. Um I'm I'm sure there's other examples of things I do for clients as well, but I'm I am physically in this region. I'm taking the time to get to know the law. And in this very fast world we live in now, it doesn't appear as though it's the case for a lot of people. But I actually do read these contracts. You actually do read these contracts. I think at this point now in the WhatsApp age, in the AI age, people almost assume even the lawyer's not reading the contract, but we actually sit down. I've seen Salem purchase agreements which are 350 pages long and I can say that I have read every single character in that contract and that that's that deep work that goes on behind the scenes that nobody sees. >> It's funny. I was in uh I was in holiday with my uh with my uh family and um I woke up a bit early and I found myself reading the terms and conditions of some products we just bought and and my my partner just woke up and then and she was like, "You're you're spending your morning coffee on terms and conditions of a contract of something that we just bought. And it doesn't really matter. No one does that. And honestly, [clears throat] it is kind of a hobby that you just understand what what are the terms and conditions of things and contracts that you buy or even tickets of a a show that you need to understand if you don't take a photo here or there. >> I want to go a little bit more technical with you right now. So, I hope you're ready for that question. >> I I knew you're a fun guy. You know, if we ever if we ever do a retreat and we're reading terms, conditions before we go scuba diving, love it. Exactly. >> Together. Um, I take the most time signing the disclaimers or whatever, waiverss and so on, so I have to read it. >> Um, right now I live here in the UAE for maybe 20 years. >> I'm from Egypt originally. That's the only passport I have and uh that's the only um jurisdiction I live in. So I'm taxed officially in the UAE, >> but I would like to invest some money in uh in UK. >> Okay. and I want to buy a property and this property I want to rent it out and make some income out of it. >> Yeah. >> What would be your recommendation of a structure considering my country of residence >> and my uh tax obligation here in the UAE. So from a legal perspective, the UK is very open for business. The UK allows foreign ownership of um shares. It allows um overseas ownership of property as well. You're allowed to be uh a nonUK citizen, a nonUK resident owning investment property within the UK. And you could structure it through a company as well. Um the difficulty I see is more on the commercial side than the legal side. So the legal answer is actually really easy. You are allowed to hold property in the UK. uh whether it be directly the property asset or through uh a corporate vehicle as uh SPV as people often call them. Legal answer is very easy. What is challenging is when you're not there on the ground um just like anywhere you know if you de I've seen so many um and we have a pretty busy litigation department as well. You invest in off plan developments that don't complete >> Yeah. capital's at risk delays and you know the margin gets squeezed or people didn't build in the costs that um you know now you've got a maintenance bill now you've got to get a um uh an EPC rating in the UK which is around the energy efficiency of um property. So the law in that regard is tightening up as well to give and and it's good because it gives tenants the sort of best conditions that there there can be and the the intention certainly of the UK legal policy around this is to improve conditions for tenants. Um but investors of course want to return. So I actually find that the difficulties come from not understanding developments, not understanding rules around developments. Um or if it's a ready property if we're talking about in the same language as we would in the UAE, it's it's a different um you know, if you don't know the trades people on the ground, it's just very hard to manage. So I've I've been involved in a few >> property management, rental agreements, maintenance contracts, >> dealing with the lawyers, the agents, the accountants, and it's just if you're not on the ground there and you don't have a good network there, >> that's when that 7% margin which you should have enjoyed becomes five becomes three becomes minus. You know, that's where uh you have to be really careful. Um we're involved in the sale of a uh a few companies which own um a property portfolio within it at the moment. South African owner um does extremely well in South Africa. Um but he can't turn a profit from his property interests in the UK and it is this notion of he's just not on the ground and he's just not close enough to it. So he's very dependent on agents, lawyers, accountants, trades people, all the people that go around to make it happen. And they you have varying degrees of trust, of delivery, of quality, of pricing as you do anywhere. >> Yeah. >> And if if you have the right team in place, it all works. If you have the wrong team in place, it doesn't. The challenge with say a buy to let strategy the margin is just very tight. So you you just can't afford for if you if you do a development and a flip and you were going to earn 20% and you end up earning 12 15% okay it's not what you expected to earn but you didn't go into negative equity and you've still come out with some money and it could be a bit of stress and a bit of challenge and I think the stress and the mental health side of it as well that needs to be quantified as well >> when people are doing their cost budgetings and saying well I've been thinking about this for a year say in your case you do that investment in the UK and you're not thinking about your legal practice, your clients matters. >> Yeah. >> There is a quantification of that distraction and that stress that's caused you. >> Um, so that's where I see the challenges. Now when I have clients as as a lawyer or as a law firm and the broader team particularly for overseas people our mantra and our culture is these are you know they're not they're not ultra wealthy or any these are these are ordinary professionals they're middle class >> they're trying to expand their operations they're trying to find new avenues they're trying to grow the wealth of their family um we are custodians and responsible for and a trusted advisor to any of our clients, but for these clients even more so because they're nervous. They're far from it. They're they're overseas and it's our job to make sure that they know it's handled and they know they can do that on trust and it's finding that everywhere you go. I mean if you're say say yourself as an example as an investor >> you've done some investments in the UAE developments you know that sometimes delays can happen but there are a lot of safety protocols here failing as a development here in the UAE is not easy and therefore most things uh not only do they complete they must complete that's not the case in the UK developments fail all the time and there aren't those guard rails in place so you go from this climate of development over to the UK climate and not immediately anticipate that actually they it's not safier in that way. Um so it's it's these commercial things that I find are are the harder thing to navigate and we're a commercial practice. My business outside of law, my jobs outside of law, these are the things that inform. So, when you have a conversation with me and go, "Right, I want to structure this property acquisition or company acquisition as an overseas buyer." Um, when you're sitting down with me, you're not just sitting down with somebody who's going to tell you this is the contract, this is the company, this is the structure. It's >> are you sure this is going to stack up on the costing? So, you thought about that cost. Do you have the right agents over there? I have somebody in my network who does X Y Z and the other and I trust them and I work with them. So, it's that it's that network as well, you know, >> and >> it's very, you know, you do that for me here as well, >> you know, I'm not going if I need an advocate in the UAE, I have a relationship with you. We know each other. Um, and I can vouch for you and I know your work and I you you have a physical presence in a physical place for a long period of time and you've worked and worked and worked and I can see that as well. Um, so when I'm I'm I'm not going to Google looking for an advocate. I'm coming to you to help me navigate this territory. >> So I mean the the the main thing what you're saying right now is is very important which is trust. when when when your clients come to you, they would like to um leverage not just on your knowledge and not just on your um experience, but they they want to um to to be happy with all the information that you give them and because they trust you. So even if you refer them to someone else who is um doing another aspect of work or ask you a question which is a little bit outside your practice area, they they trust that you um will give them the sound advice. >> What about the opposite side? I mean those who are investing here from the UK and um they're still taxable there. what could be the good model or good structure for them to put the money here in the UAE and optimize their tax exposure for example. >> Yes. So from a legal perspective and tax perspective. >> Yes. So certainly from a legal perspective um I tend to find it intuitive to have a um completely independent setup in the UAE that interacts well with the UK. So if you are growing in my case I'm growing a practice as a partner of Davidson and Co. that is a completely separate entity and then I am the managing director of Ali Legal and that is a completely separate entity. In my personal case, I am still a tax resident in the UK. My returns go there, my income goes there. If I want to in the future, I may look at rules around dregistering for UK personal taxes. Um, I don't think I will go that way personally um because it doesn't it doesn't fall within my uh personal structuring plans. Um, but that is something people can do. And I think one thing to be mindful of as British expats here in the UK is a lot of people think they simply come here, earn the money here, and then they don't report back taxation. Um, they don't make tax returns in relation to income here. It doesn't work that way. dregistering, thinking about um how many days you spend in certain jurisdictions, getting the right tax advice and um having a certain substance within a jurisdiction is all considered by tax authorities on both sides. Um and it's not just a dregistering of one territory, it's registering in a different territory as well. So all these things have to be thought about from a legal perspective and a tax perspective and that that advice if the intention is to not pay tax in the UK and to optimize in the UAE uh these filings have to be done um this planning has to be done and even travel arrangements have to be thought about very very carefully. Yeah, I think it's a mistake. A lot of expats fall in when they move out and they get a new job in the UAE. They think that we're automatically non-resident in in our home countries, not just in the UK. Um, and they forget to dregister themselves. >> Yeah. uh tax wise and enforce at least uh ask for a tax residence certificate in the UAE because it's something that you can apply for and have here to prove based on the days I have, based on the residency, based on the amount of um income I'm making here, the job I have and my presence. Um this is the center of life. That's where I should be taxed and you have to register it in both countries. So I completely agree with you. A lot of people forget to do that. Not just from the UK, from many other countries. Mr. Akbar, I have a friend from the UK >> who has a will in UK. They have properties in UK and they decided to move with the family. >> Still the properties are rented and commercial use like uh short-term rentals in UK. And now they're creating a new life here in the UAE. >> Mhm. >> They have children. children at school. They have properties here and they have a company. And then I told them, listen, you should have a will in the UAE and you should have a will that covers your assets in the UAE. And my recommendation is to separate your assets that is covered by your well in UK and from the well that um you have in the UAE that covers the UAE assets. That's my personal opinion. But he told me that he has a lawyer from UK who advised him against that and he said let me uh just cover all the assets worldwide with the UK will and I don't have I I don't recommend this and I'm not sure whether the UK will will be enforcable and strong enough to cover him in the UAE. >> What do you think about that? I 100% agree with what you have said and I think it's foolish not to have a will in the UAE if you have assets in the UAE that's the short blunt >> and children it's like >> yeah the guardianship matters the yeah all of this and I think the difficulty is is that um you will have advisers in the UK who will see it through that lens of can technically a UK K will encapsulate all assets globally. Absolutely it can. But what happens practically when you try to administer that will in freezone territories in onshore mainland jurisdictions in the UAE which are subject to federal law. when you go to a particular office with an attested uh power of attorney sealed stamp delivered UK will and still aren't able to transfer title to a property or to a business all that pain is avoided and this is another one of those scenarios where a little bit of planning and a little bit of expenditure can avoid so much difficulty later down the line that people don't see coming and you know these it is more expensive here to create wills and register them. That's an interesting market as well because in the UK the reason they're cheap is because the market has developed in a way where um it's become a what we call a loss leader. So people write up wills they ideally have themselves stated as the executor of the will. when you come to executing the will as people expire then they are able to charge fees around uh and and there's provision for it in the will that they create they're allowed to charge fees rightly reasonably associated to the um the administration distribution and and dealing with uh the assets of the will. Does it matter how big is the um the legacy for example and in terms of the value does the fee is determined by how much the deceased leave behind? Uh it it doesn't it doesn't. So you it it doesn't strictly but if it takes longer to administer a bigger estate you will end up um with with bigger fees. >> It's quite the same here. >> Yeah. And it and it doesn't it doesn't wildly become disproportionate. It always shouldn't. Um but there there is that range of um deviation um depending on what you're dealing with in the estate. But yeah, this is this is the kind of thing where and actually this question of yours brings together almost everything we've been discussing because um it's a scenario where you can do a little bit of planning and a little bit of expenditure and prevent a problem that's going to come in the future. It's a scenario where yes, you might be legally right, but are you commercially right and are you administratively right and are you considering different offices in different jurisdictions, right? Maybe not. Um, and again, it's that strategy and that planning and what there's an adviser that just does law and there's an adviser that just does tax and there's an adviser that just does accounting, but then there's an adviser that um has had a business, has had a family, has lived a life, has been in different territories in the world, and they've seen how it all kind of can connect together and bring all those experiences to their offering. >> [snorts] >> Yeah, I think it it carries a lot of value that you understand both jurisdictions and the struggles and the culture from both areas as well where people are moving from here to there or from there to here and uh and and and you bring this experience. Um I want to take you a little bit to bigger businesses where they are um M&A deals and transactions because this is something that you also deal with. What do you see the one thing that everybody is doing wrong when it comes to um M&A deal? >> Um so one thing I think everyone is doing wrong when it comes to an M&A deal is the price structuring. It's around uh deferred consideration in outs. Um the only money when you are a seller that is committed um guaranteed or as close to being guaranteed as it can be is the money you get on the day. Anything after is going to be subject to a lot of things interacting together. And if you don't have your protections in place and you don't have your drafting in place, it's it's a gamble. And I I've heard advice from corporate lawyers. I don't agree with this advice and I think it's a little bit lazy and undeveloped. They will say um just mindsetwise as a seller the completion money is your money for the business. If you get anything extra you get it. Otherwise don't hope to get it. It's like a bonus. I don't agree with that. I think whatever the price methodology is and the valuation protocols are should be honored and adhered to and then the handshake, the agreement and the contract and the clauses should all match up to make sure that what those parties intended is reflected. This is the foundational purpose of contracts to give certainty of outcome to tell everybody what the rules are when a certain thing happens. And even if it's not something you wanted to happen, if the contract provides the rules and the framework to work within, the contract has done its job. And that's what I spend a lot my time creating. >> I'm I'm going to disagree with you. I'll tell you why. >> I'm a businessman. >> Yeah. Hypothetically I'm not but I'm saying that I'm I'm a businessman right now I've exit six companies before and each one of them I had this bad experience is that really the completion prize is something and whatever comes later on is really a question mark depends on and the lawyer find their way all the time and they come up with terms and then we have a conflict and this is a repeated thing. So no matter what we put in contracts, human behavior sometimes prevails. So in this example, the business owner has had six exits. I've had hundreds if not thousands. So if we're going to compare anecdotal experiences, my anecdotal experiences are the authority. And I can say very assuredly that um many many many many and the f vast majority of my clients if they've harbored an expectation to earn an earnout or received a cert deferred consideration or share in the uplift of a business that could be anti- embarrassment um and other ways of structuring these things. they've received it because they've had the contract clauses that match up with the things that they've agreed. If there's an absence of that, that's when you get into this place of not receiving what you expected to do. So, it could have happened six times, it could have happened 20 times, 30 times, you could be that level of experienced as a business owner exiting. But, um, you're exiting your own businesses. I am a lawyer exiting for many business owners in many sectors in many parts of the world on a prolific ongoing basis. So my body of works is what I'm speaking to. And even that body of works is still anecdotal. It's not a a cross-section of all things M&A in, you know, it's not statistical evidence even still. But if one of them is going to be persuasive, my examples are going to be persuasive. >> Yeah. in terms of volume at least. No, I agree with you. Now, um how do you handle frustrated clients because this is a really very tough work. I mean it's very hard to handle a frustrated client and and honestly I met so many who are upset who had very bad experience with another lawyer or got completely cheated >> from someone who was not even qualified and they gave them a wrong advice or a lawyer who is I don't know whatever. >> Mhm. >> How do you handle frustrated clients? It's a few different things. Um, with this scenario and as many scenarios as I can hold on to your humanity, I the first thing I do with any situation is try to understand their frustration and it's not nice for me cuz I might be on the receiving end of frustration. Um, we try and avoid it as much as possible by delivering good strate. But inevitably things are going to come up. We live in a fastpaced business world. Things are happening at speed. The job of a lawyer is mentally taxing and we don't just draft documents and um do advocacy in courts now. We we also do podcasts. We go on social media. So our our job has expanded 10 20fold as well. Um but yeah that I think that first step that I take in all of these situations and I'm very disciplined about that is why are they frustrated? Where is this coming from? So in in this respect I had a um and we we don't have many expressions of dissatisfaction. I don't want to um understate the quality of my practice. um it doesn't happen that often. I think people would perceive it happening more than than it actually does because people, you know, they have a general discontent and disliking towards law firms. What I do and we're very proud of and I put an awful lot of work in um client satisfaction, delivery of services, the quality of what we're doing. Um but but it does happen even with us. I do believe it's inevitable and then it's how you respond to it and deal with it. So I I had a scenario where somebody had sold a business. They had not done very well out of selling that business. And this is an interesting thing as well. You know, a lot of people think business owners, they're the wealthy. You know, when they sell a business, that's when they get the big check, the big payday. And you know, they're rich now. And that's not always the case. Sometimes a business owner has exited a business. And it is just that they escaped, they exited, they got out of a situation. In this scenario, there was somebody harboring a seller harboring an expectation for um consideration that they didn't receive. that extrapolated out over the course of over a year of um doing um reviews of how completion accounts were done, working capital calculations, surplus cash, how was the valuation done, very very close and detailed scrutiny of clauses um including which can start to feel a bit uncomfortable clauses that I had personally drafted. So, it's it gets to a place eventually in scenarios like this when your personal work is being called into question uh and your abilities and capabilities are being called into question. But because that person didn't receive the consideration they expected, they' told their wife that they were expecting that consideration. They'd promised the bigger house to the children, the holiday, and that didn't come and it become very financially challenging for that person. They ended up um they actually ended up breaking up with their spouse. The spouse lost confidence and the financial security they had in that family and left him. So, he's then left without his spouse. He's now no longer seeing his children dayto-day as he was. He's no longer in this um loving safe relationship and he's connecting it all back to this deal, this consideration, this drafting that you did. And suddenly this has gone from a very close, friendly, working together, collaborative relationship to something where we're now opposed and you're being accused and your regulators being talked about and your insurance uh for your professional uh services is being um tabled. Again, this is a scenario where, as I do without exception, where's this coming from? How do I feel if my partner leaves me because of a chain of events? Um, do I agree with him that he accused me of drafting something that was not as good as it could have been? Absolutely not. I totally disagree. And I believe under any objective legal scrutiny um the contract served its purpose. Um I don't believe he was a good business person. I don't believe he was very good at numericics. Um does he deserve to end up in that situation? No. Um is it nice and kind and compassionate that he's ended up into that situation? No. But this is the reality we're facing. And when I interacted with him, um it's not like we're the best of friends now, but um step one for me is as it was in that scenario, as it is always, how would I feel if I did a deal, um I did my best, even maybe I wasn't good enough at doing the numeric and doing my business. I was expecting some money. I then promised that to my family in generosity, in in good nature, in good will. uh it didn't come through and I had paid for the services of a professional who I then felt wasn't um doing the job I needed to do. How would I feel? I wouldn't feel good. I'd feel negative. Maybe I would be stressed. Maybe I would act in a way that I wouldn't normally act. Um so I do that kind of assessment first. And this is that perspective. It's that taking my being out of myself and putting it over there from that man's perspective. Uh, and then looking at the situation and then I come back and then I'm able to conduct myself as well as I possibly can in a very accusatory, very pressured circumstance. And um there's other protocols I have as well, but I think that's the main one is holding on to that humanity. And in in that scenario, I think that's the closest we've come to a direct allegation, a direct accusation and that discomfort of having things scrutinized after the fact. Um, ultimately in that circumstance, that person wasn't paid their consideration and it was a valid route for the buyer of that business to get out of being able to pay that person. >> Yeah, >> I have a firm belief that that wasn't because of our drafting, my drafting. Um, that was because of how the business was run and because of the accounting metrics surrounding that business. And I believe that person should have done better in that regard. And I believe there were other advisers involved in that deal that didn't do their job. But I do 100% believe not from a just defending myself perspective, not because it's about me, from an objective outlook. I do believe we did a good job and other people didn't. >> That person >> I think I think it's Sorry, sorry to interrupt you. I think it's a reminder >> for a lot of businessmen and entrepreneurs is that they need to understand there's a big difference between the legal side of things and the commercial side of things. I'm supposed to help you with the administration. I'm supposed to help you with the legalities. I'll tell you what's right and what's wrong and how to close a contract and how to close a deal. The commercial side of how you run your business and how you understand your financials. that's your job or the job of the financial director or the commercial director. So if you exclude these experts and you put yourself as the expert of everything and then you become the um number two with the lawyer doing the transaction, you might do a lot of mistakes because we rely on your expertise in your commercial vertical. So there a lot of decisions that I say we need to be all sitting together. I need the tax advisor in the room. I need the finance guy in the room. I need the commercial guy in the room. I need the CEO who's the owner in the room. And I have to be there. And all decisions have to be discussed. And that's why big corporations have board of directors and have people of different expertise running together doing something. And it is very important to keep this meeting and to keep this circle all well informed and working together in a as a team to get a good result. I I mean I actually really really enjoy it when you know you have a really good quality tax advisor and you're doing tax drafting and now suddenly you have somebody to work with who can speak to you at a technical level. um you can look at new ideas, you can you can take it further, you can become more creative with it. I really enjoy that process. Now it is a balancing act because equally you and your principal might be a very effective deal team and sometimes there can be too many cooks in the kitchen but it's that this is when the human nature comes into it where we have to not just deploy what we've read in a book and deliver the technical services. We have to remember who we are as humans, who we are as business people, work very hard, interact and balance a lot of thinking protocols in order to get the best possible outcome for particular situations. There are times when, as I say, you and your principal might be the one uh where you can just go in and get a deal done. Um, and sometimes it might be that actually having you on the team can be a hindrance. I've had some negotiations where I've said, you know what, me as the lawyer, I'm going to go in there. this person might be upset with me or the the my legal uh counterpart. We're not actually collaborating very well. Why don't you drop us from this part of the negotiation and do it with these people involved or in this way? And my thing is how do we get the deal done? How do we progress? How do we get to completion or how do we get to the outcome and whatever it takes to achieve that outcome to some degree? >> You [snorts] know, sometimes I do even the opposite. I sometimes tell the clients to to get out. >> Mh. >> It's like I I really need a lawyer only meeting. >> Yeah. >> Let's discuss because then >> a little bit the ego goes down when there are no clients in the room and it's only a lawyer lawyer meeting and we just >> not so personal. >> Yeah. It's not so personal. Let's just get the agreement. You know what your client want. You know I know what my client want. Let's just read the middle ground. You don't have to stay on stage and uh perform. Now, now we're behind the curtains. Let's just close the deal. And it works from time to time. >> Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. >> So, who are you as a person? So, forget the legal part. Forget the uh the the the responsibilities as a father and uh tell me who are you? How do you describe yourself? Wow, that's uh that's quite [laughter] a you you if you strip away my fatherhood and I do wonder these things. I >> so because that's that's where you spend most of your time either lawyering or being a family man. >> Until you said the last bit, my answer was going to be, well, I'm a father [laughter] and it is interesting because these things become such a huge part of your life. >> Yeah. >> They become you and they become your identity. And my identity is that of a lawyer, of a business owner, of a father. And probably in that reverse order of ascending of importance. And for me, you know, even like things like my social media descriptions, I always make sure that there's a, you know, there's going to be something like a Quranic verse. Um, then there's going to be a reference to me being a father. And I do that deliberately to make that indication and that signal that actually these things are my top top priorities. And then the other things, you know, who I've become academically um in in business, in my career, they are meaningful and they're purposeful. I enjoy them. Um but they are a construct. they are. It's it's a it's a system designed in order for us to trade, in order for us to have a business community, in order for wealth to be moved around and distributed. So, I I do see it just as that. Who am I at the absolute core of it? We're going to have to potentially do another podcast in 10 years time where I develop this answer. For now, I'm on a journey. I'm seeking the answers. I'm exploring uh the UAE and specifically Dubai for everything it has to offer. Meeting new people um meeting new parts of myself as well through them. Um and just developing that more and more. I'm I would say at this stage in my life I'm on a bit of a a bigger religious quest. Um so I did Umrah in October. Um, and I'm trying to get closer to my internal mechanisms, my I don't know, spirituality, if you will. I I don't like that term, but um just that uh to to really be able to answer your questions, that is such a tough question. You know, who are we at the core of it? You know, I've called I've said I'm a father all this time. I've said I'm a lawyer all this time. Um work in progress. I love it and I think it is something that um all successful people in general uh and all self-aware people in general they always on a quest to understand more about themsel and to develop more and to do greater things. So my answer will be almost the same work in progress. >> Well, if you get to the answer before I do, be sure to let me know. >> You promised me in 10 years another podcast. >> [laughter] >> hopefully sooner in >> but uh but for sure I going to ask you this question again in few uh months time when you are more uh comfortable established and you found in Dubai all what you wish for and need professionally personally and spiritually as well. Thank you. Um if I want you to um last two questions. Okay. I know I asked you so many questions today. >> Um, one thing, what would be the one thing you ask [clears throat] everyone who's working with you, whether client or a colleague, to uh consider or to remember uh while dealing with you. So, you would like them never to lie or would like them always to be on time or you would like them to think of uh respect your free time or lunchtime. Yeah, just when you mention one thing that you wish everybody know about you uh to have a smooth work culture. Um, so I have been able to do that for others by serving them. And it sounds um, it sounds almost has like a negative slant on it, but the way I have navigated my career and my business is by saying I serve my clients, I serve my colleagues at any level of the hierarchy, I serve my introducers. uh and you know the people and I think when I get that indication that other people feel that same way as well when uh reciprocally dealing with me and you know people can make mistakes, people can interrupt your lunch, people can be slow to deliver work um people might not deliver work in the same level of quality as you would expect. All these things happen. Everybody is at different stages. and what I was saying earlier about step into their shoes and understand what their perspective is and I do that in these situations as well when your day doesn't go quite exactly how you expect it to go. Um but if I get that indication from a person that if they whether they have not done good work or they've done slow or they've interrupted or whatever it is if they if I can see from their perspective they are also trying to serve me or serve others or serve the business then it's okay. You know mistakes can be made. We're all human. um they are diligently attempting to do the best thing that they possibly can in those circumstances. That's enough. >> Thank you so much. I think it's a amazing answer and uh last question. >> I told you to. Um can you please give an advice to lawyers in UK who look at the UAE right now but they don't know how to start. I think there's many things people can do. You know, I've I've physically come here. So, spending that time here, whether it's you are you have a periodic visitation, you know, as some lawyers I know and work with here, um they will make sure that they are physically in the UAE um one week every other month or two weeks every month, whatever it is. I have um physically based myself here on a full-time basis whilst interacting with a few other jurisdictions as well. Having that time here I think is really important. The business community here is varied. Um some are younger businesses, some are very very mature old businesses and everything in the middle. And I think there is a lot of instances of requiring physical time and presence and attention here and more so than other jurisdictions in the world. I think that to some extent that's true about London as well and I think having that physical time here is really important and it's only through that where you spend that time you can then develop your network and then once you've got that network is using it effectively again I go back to the example of if I need an advocate in this jurisdiction to go to a mainland court I'm going to my friend Ahmed I'm not going to Google. I'm not going to random sources of introductions or random suggestions or WhatsApp groups or uh general networks. I'm going to the man who knows. I'm going to that person in that space who's done that time served. And I think combined with that physical time, developing that work, using it effectively, that really gets you, that gives you a really good boost. You can very quickly, you know, you can start getting work in, you can start referring work to different places, you can start interacting and working with people already in this market. And why not leverage their existing goodwill and um then there's always going to be the ongoing learning. Um I've done a legal certificate in DIFC as I mentioned earlier to some degree that was quite um that was quite the the subject matter of it was quite something that I'm already familiar with. It's not new to me. But there's still some little nuances here and there that you go okay this a little bit different here in the UAE. So I may find 10 15 20% pockets of information where I say actually that's brushed me up a little bit more and made me a little bit more aware about the rules here. So those there's plenty of you know uh universities and academic offerings here for legal developments as well. So uh get here get your network and keep learning the law. >> Absolutely. I am from my side. Watch the jurist podcast. Join Emirates Legal Network. Understand about the culture and understand about the law. Um, don't listen to anybody who's telling you the market is saturated because there's enough business for everyone. My colleague here is doing almost 90% of what I do. So there is a lot of business intersection here and we are sitting here praising each other, promoting each other, talking about each other in a very good way. Tomorrow we're going to be collaborating and do business together. So don't ever think that the market is saturated. Competition, the healthy one is very good and it raised the bar for everybody. So join social and professional communities. Even if you are there, get acquainted with the law, watch podcasts, not just mine. I mean, mine is the best, but watch others. Um, and stay in touch. Have a very nice LinkedIn profile, post every day, connect with people, and um, you're going to do it just like me. I did it. Just like Abar, he did it as well. >> My friend, I'm very happy. The conversation was very smooth. I learned a few things about you and a lot from you >> and I'm very happy you're here and thank you very much for being on the Jurus podcast. My pleasure. Thank you very much for having