Your life is is like a movie and you should be the star of this movie. The personality of the person who's asking the question if they really care about the business. The main distinction between both is knowing the business and they spoke about this. They spoke about the silence. The most impact I've done in my career was when I was not speaking. I've watched and witnessed the evolvement of the in-house troll of a legal council sitting in a company doing investigations some contracts some stuff moving on to handling man managing the external law firms and then now sitting in the board meetings and sitting on the table of business decisions. So communication is very important being there when the client asks for you is number one ask. [Music] Welcome back to the jurist podcast. Today we have a very special guest as usual is Dr. Mogy the president of the ACC MEA and he's steering one of the biggest energy companies in the region Siemens energy. Pleasure. Thank you very much for having me today. Thank you. I know you uh do do you actually watch us or listen to the jurist? Every single episode. Really? Definitely. Yes. Mish, I'm going to ask you questions. Actually, I love them all. Yeah. I know you very well as Dr. Mohamed El-Mogy. What is that about that everybody know you as Dr. Mogy? My name is Mohamed. Obviously, I'm Mohamed El Mogy. That's my name, right? I've been known all my life with Mohamed El Mogy. But uh since I came into the uh career and the jobs and everything else, everybody's calling me Mogy. Everybody's calling me Mogy except for my wife. She called me different names, right? But that's it. I became known for Mpgy and that's it. No, you're known for being one of the funniest lawyers in the in in the UAE. Actually, that's another myth. And thank you very Maybe this is your opinion, Ahmed, right? Yes. No, the thing is also I mean you know our job Ahmed right our job is it drains the life out of you as they say right and that was very much into me as well so I was very much dragged into this life then 101 15 years back I thought to myself no I'm not going to be into this hell of stress right I'll just take it easy a little bit and I I tell my family your life is is like a movie and you should be the star of this movie everybody else is our guest of honors don't don't make them ruin your And that's it. That's a really nice uh way to look at it. I mean, you're heading the legal role in one of the biggest energy companies, Seammen's Energy, in the Middle East. How do you see this with your team? Like, do you actually uh tell jokes around and make uh people work style in in a funny way? Does it help? No, that's tricky question because if I said this, people will have the impression that it's like a a comic movie all day long. But it's not it's not we also experience stress all the time. uh it's um it's it's a job with all that you can think of. settlements, negotiations, issues, disputes, all that you can think of is happening uh in Seammen's energy and definitely the interaction with the team is always positive to the point as much as we can and uh definitely it has it it it reflects a lot of fun no doubt I mean without uh drawing the smile on our other fa people's faces life will not move on right absolutely how long you've been working with seammen's energy uh seammens/semons energy almost 8 years. Okay. And they all in the UAE or you've been I started in Egypt, Libya, Sudan, northeast uh Africa and then I moved to uh UAE here in the regional office in 2019. Your role is in the Middle East, the whole thing. Uh yes, I'm I'm taking over the corporate and/itigation dispute resolution into the Middle East mainly. So my team is spread all over the Middle East. How is this role going for the last 8 years? I mean you've been heading this department now and did you see a lot of change when it comes to the the this role specifically? 100%. Uh I mean the life in the in-house is constantly changing. This is no doubt. But I would even get back more back in the history with the start of not the start I mean when I started with the in-house roles. I've watched and witnessed the evolvement of the in-house stroll of a legal council sitting in a company doing investigations some contracts some stuff moving on to handling uh man managing the external law firms and then now sitting in the board meetings and sitting on the table of business decisions. So this whole the whole journey of the in-house council I've been I've experienced it me and others of course we've seen the evol. We are lucky enough to see this evol evolvement happening uh throughout the past 20 years I would say. Did you work on the private practice before? Did you have this a little bit of your in your career as an experience or you just jumped to the in-house role immediately? No, of course. My father is a lawyer and your father is a lawyer as well, right? Uh so so I decided to be a lawyer like when I was like 13 15 years old. uh I don't know maybe I was fascinated with how he's dressed how he talks well and how he's well respected also in the community and then this is then hence when I decided to be uh a lawyer uh so yes I started off with the private practice and I'm telling you Ahmed with all the confidence that these years of private practice are the motive that keeps me moving so far till now so the private practice is the school it is the factory that manufactures lawyer Right. This leads us perfectly to the memo versus solution mindset. I would like you to elaborate on that because this is one of the points that a lot of people um kind of don't get in that I've I've met a lot of lawyers especially lawyers from the private practice uh who are more in involved into providing something in writing something very academic that they try to perfect a memo more than get getting a solution or finding a solution for a for a matter do you see that this is one of the traits of that you can get as a private practice lawyer or you can get more as a in-house thank you very much for asking this question but by the way I'm not excluding myself I'm coming with from the school where we get into the theories and uh memos and long memos and opinions and other stuff this is where we were educated uh this profession right I'll give you a story I had uh someone in my team long time back and not in Seammen's energy obviously right and this person he's a fantastic he's a really great lawyer uh from uh the mindset the how he's he's doing the performing the job he's really good but that was his first in-house job and what happened is the gentleman every time a matter comes to him he gets into the research and legal research and and putting a memo together the legal theories and like two three pages email sent to the business and then the business people immediately they get confused and now they have to read all of this right giving me a job not a solution which confuses them more and there is no solution because this is not what we provide mainly I mean the the the title of the profession does not count so we don't give a solution so there's no solution two pages of of draft that people now have to read and then uh you highlight the risks here the risks there but you don't give a solution And then eventually the business comes back to us and asking guys what we do now. Time by time by time we started to change. I'm talking now about myself. I'm coming with from the same background from the same attitude in performing art profession. But by time I have switched not only me all my colleagues in the legal in-house legal profession. And ironically enough now as I can see and I I hope that you agree with me as well even the private practice colleagues and friends are all somehow moving towards this direction to the direction of we are bringing in a solution a solution for the right business decision to be taken in this matter not uh dropping our legal opinion and giving uh giving you your our backs and that's it. No, we are here as partners. We are here to help you to get into your business within the legal frame right you know I'll tell you about my my personal experience I never worked in house not not a day in my life I was always lucky you a private practice lawyer I always serve clients some of them corporate and some private and my biggest problem when it comes to working with corporates is that it depends on who's asking the question so if there is a lawyer on the other side. It is completely different to corporates who are the CEO is asking me the question and I'll say one more thing that it depends also on it is that sometimes you feel that the client is your partner they actually try to look for a solution together with you and sometimes you feel that the client is your enemy is trying to get you to make a mistake or he will take your memo and Hey, let's see if this memo lasts for our brainstorming session because we're going to take it to the board and break this memo to pieces and realize that this memo is is is not comprehensive enough. Yeah. For some reason. So, it really depends on who is asking the question on the other side. Actually, I I will I will ask you the question to you. Which which was preferred more to you to deal with the CEO CFO of a company, the owner of of a company or a business or with the in-house lawyer? I don't know. You don't have to answer yes or no. But but I would I'm very much interested to listen to this. I can give you an answer. It it it doesn't matter. This is the this is the issue. It really matters the personality of the person who's asking the question. If they really care about the business, they will come to me asking for a question trying to reach a solution. So the way they ask the question is actually can you please find us a solution for this pickle for this problem or they come to me and like I would like to have a memo that outlines all the risks and blah blah blah for this situation. was like I get it whether a CEO or another lawyer uh on the other side they really need like a book they don't need a memo I don't know that the only thing is I mean there are many distinctions between the private practice lawyers and in-house lawyers and people speak about it all day long we're not here to list them down right yes but to how I view it the main distinction between both is is knowing the business. The in-house lawyer gets into a company and by time he transforms into someone who really knows this business. If you work for a for an FM f FMCG company like beverage company or so you understand that there's a concentrate and this goes this production line and production line has why because you will find cases coming to you that obliges you to understand this sequence of uh business the lawyer our colleague and friend the lawyer sitting in private practice he or she does not have to know this. Yeah, sometimes of course they get into the details of it but they are not into it but this is a main distinction that's and and that would be even my advice to myself and all fellow in-house colleagues guys whenever you get in a job in a company your number one priority is to understand the business in and out because this will differentiate you from other lawyers and then the technicalities will move on. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the going back to what is more important of a skill or what is more important of a deliverable from a private practice lawyer, I think we need to address more the economical value of our advice. Whether it's it makes sense economically to to go to court or to take this into a to a dispute or it doesn't make sense because what we're going to spend or what we're going to advise you to spend on that uh problem is going to supersede or be even equal to whatever we're we're chasing. So going back to this I would say a solutionoriented private practice lawyer and the same and the same thing on the other side who's asking the question a solutionoriented client would help a lot the relationship between the private practice and inhouse I mean no doubt we would just if you're asking for a certain skill that uh that an in-house lawyer should have I don't have any because you We I mean you're now part of a company. You're going 9 to5 to your office, part of the team in different businesses and industries. But the only advice is do not forget that you are a lawyer. Do not forget that you are a lawyer. That's the only point because sometimes you will need to hold the horses of the internal clients, the businesses to tell guys, yes, let's do this. It's fine. But sometime guys that will put us into a unlikely situation. We will not go to this route right a lot of private practice lawyer especially and you are responsible for it. Of course. Of course. Yeah. But this I will I will take you a little bit more into the corporate side. A lot of the private practice lawyers are working for boutique firms or even if they don't work for boutique firms, they work for bigger firms. But the politics internally in law firms are way less because usually you work in teams. So your team is I don't know five, six lawyers. It's easy to manage your your relationships inside. And we don't understand the corporate politics. And this is a term that a lot of lawyers are very much afraid of. and they don't know what's going on behind the scenes because you work for a big corporation. I'm not saying that your corporation has that. I'm saying that in general most of the corporate clients, the big ones have a lot of politics inside that steer decisions in a way or another. Sometimes not really economical decisions. Yeah. I don't know. I think the the the how do you perceive the internal uh politics thing it's a personal perception but I mean some people say that the internal politics and the law firms are extremely high cannot survive this environment it's your problem similarly in the companies as well you create your own problems you look at things from perspective that you're looking to everyone as if they are attacking you as if you're not feeling comfortable will hear you decide what you're going to do. It's all about the personal perception to how I view it. There's no I I cannot I've speaken to hundreds of of colleagues and lawyers. I haven't seen that segment or certain criteria where you can say that yes this is this industry is a lot of internal politics and this is super fine and nice right but it's a matter of you how do you what how do you going to decide to written your own existence in where you are? Do you think it's easier to be a private practice lawyer versus to have an in-house role? None of them easy. I mean the legal profession it's not easy from all aspect and no again no distinction. I couldn't I couldn't say that yeah I would be happier and uh and happiness is is a state of mind as well. it fluctuates. Sometimes you just wake up in the morning and feel very happy. And some I'm saying this because that's what what is very much repeated everywhere that the in-house roles are much more stable and easier to manage because you're a part of a bigger organization. It doesn't have that much um I don't know long hours to work and so on. That's that's what goes around. It's a myth. I I I think it's a myth and it's all about uh the value you bring to the table whether it is in private practice whether it is in a company or corporate uh life you decide and again what value you're bringing to the table and if you go home every single day feeling that I did what I have to do that's it you will drop the internal politics you'll drop everything and that's it I think I mean you're talking about skills and people could do the stereotyping and saying you should work hard you should you should prepare elves but I would say that one of the things that every lawyer whether in private practice or in house should have is the silence the power of silence this tell me more about that this power that I don't have okay because I built and I don't know about others most of lawyers we built this curse of when you start speaking you never stop right but which is of course it's good you have ideas are jumping like monkeys in your head and you want to say something but in the meantime you need to just slow down and listen to others. I just attended um a very interesting sess session panel about courageous leaders with one of the law firms and they spoke about this. They spoke about the silence and they s they said one of the lawyers sitting on the panel said that the most impact I've done in my career was when I was not speaking right and it happened to me by the way. I mean you know me very well I I don't stop speaking right talking but the thing is I went for a negotiation u meeting for a settlement huge thing and I said to myself today I'm going to challenge myself I'm not going to speak at all at le I'm going to force myself to be silent as well I want to give the impression right okay it worked fantastically you know what happened I kept sil silent for like four or five hours and I think you learned a lot during the this silent 4 hours. You learned a lot about the people in the room. 100%. But I didn't like it though. Okay. Yeah. I know it's it's my nature, right? It's we just uh even though I will tell you something. I I I I speak to my son for example. I tell him and when I want to emphasize on something, I say it mute. If you want to succeed in life, you must you got it. This is how I emphasize on it and he gets it. It's It's going to be very hard for me to agree with you on this. I will actually say the opposite because if I stop talking or I stop making a point, I cannot charge per hour because I I'm a private practice lawyer. I charge for my time and if I go there for a meeting for 4 hours and do nothing, I will be judged on that. It's not a rule. Yeah. just saying that one of the things that uh that also one can develop right um just use the power of silence but I will go back to the billing point because you're also my client and I mean in in terms of you're the in-house side what do you want to see to agree on my time sheets what do you because the dynamics between us is always value of course you want my opinion because it's valuable or my input because of the value. And for me to be able to provide the value, I'm going to have to spend a little bit of time. And I want to understand how can I make you happy or happier so I can be able to charge more. You know that triangula, right? It's the speed, quality, and uh price. And uh we whether we like it or not all companies, multinational companies, business owners are now aggressively in under uh cut cost and cost deduction uh ambitious plans, right? And guess what? on the top of spending of any business, you will find always the external law firms fees coming on the top three, top five uh uh items of the top spending. Accordingly, the management of these companies, they start to cascade down that guys, let's do something about the external law firm fees. It doesn't mean that we're going to stop using, of course not. We cannot live without the private practice lawyers. But in the meantime, let's rationally find a module, a solution that make us all happy. And ironically enough, there is no golden formula for it. But that we're trying. Uh if you're asking me what what I want from a billing standpoint, most people are walking away from the hourly rates uh decent. And I don't I'm not saying here that uh priv law firms could go down with the fees or just make it cheap. No, don't make it cheaper. Don't make it less. Don't I want you to be happy as well because if you're happy, you're going to help me. And this is what I really% I'm going to hire the best lawyers to cover my my clients. Yeah. And I'm willing to pay. I don't mind. But don't overcharge me. Don't look at me as uh the the cow milking for which which I mean it's fair ask right and I can give you some examples not in this in this jurisdiction not in this era it's uh and it's not invented it happened I received invoices from law firms whereby you know when you file a lawsuit first instance and then you have appeal and there's a counter appeal these are two different cases Yeah. The first hearing as we all know as lawyers the court make the two appeals together attach them together one they become one case one judgment final this is simple we will to everyone and then this law firm before the in-house lawyers been there so dealing with the business you're looking at the invoices they are sending 9 hours today court hearing a Appeal number XY Z 9 hours appeal hearing case number ABC which are combined attached to each other like uh 10 months back. You got my point? Yes. This is something it's like um it's like a a red flag something that we will never accept. And you know what happened? I confronted them and they said uh oh sorry to me this is uh anu because it's it's impossible to happen by mistake something like this was done intentionally to overcharge and this is yeah I'm not saying that uh I mean this is I don't know whether it's intention maybe it's mistaken there but it's not at least it's poor poor uh supervising of the invoicing process which is also something severe that private practice should take care of and sometimes also and this is very good point. I mean decent law firm, decent charging as well, which we agree with. And then eventually we find ourselves that the fees of the law firm exceeding the claim amount. And this is also a no go to us, right? And okay, hold on guys, stop. Thank you. And guess what? We're losing, which is fine. No, nobody is required to achieve result as we know, right? But you're expecting your external council to highlight this fact that this case is going to take six to 10 months. I'm going to charge you between 100 and 150 and this claim is 50,000. This is a complete nonsense in terms of the economics. Don't do it. Or this is uh 100 dirhams claim and my fees are x amount of money which is will not exceed that amount no matter what happened. Not asking for results obviously, right? We're asking for this due diligence. Ahmed, help me to help you. I'm here to advocate your case. By the way, you're helping me with the business, but I'm here advocating your case with management, with CFOs, with CEOs, with other people, right? Help me help you. We talked about the billing, and that's very clear and the value that you're asking for from private practice lawyers. What other things are you expecting us to to be providing? I mean, you're coming from a um experience as well. You worked in private practice before and you know the struggles. You know how much we work and how much we have to do billing. Sorry, like put billable hours especially the the the big law firms and and so on. All the associates are expected to to to work and to to put this time. But what are the technical skills and the values that you are expecting the external councils to have so that you are happy to work with them in the future? I can give you all the stereotyping answers for this question till from that's not why I invited you. I know that you're going to give me a special answer. I'm I'm sitting in a company. I'm I'm I'm appointing a law firm. I I simply need them to be there when I call them. Full stop. Just be there. Just be there. Support me. I mean, I need your support. Exactly. I learned the hard way. By the way, this uh when I graduated back in the days, uh I went to a friend of my father and he has a company. He was coming just coming from Australia. uh and he said uh okay I'm gonna uh retain you as a lawyer uh on monthly basis but I have one condition you have to have a mobile phone at that time mobile phones were very expensive very expensive to the subscription and everything else and this is how uh such businessman looking into it I want you to be available that was 1997 Ahmed when mobiles were really the bill I'm paying each month is 200 Egyptian pounds. The salary he offered me is 200 Egyptian pounds as a retainer. Imagine. But I did it and I understood it and I appreciate it as well. So communication is very important. Being there when the client asks for you is number one ask. Dr. Mogi, you are the president of ACC Middle East or Mina. Mina is Mina. So Middle East and North Africa. ACC is the association of corporate councils. This is something that I learned after a few years of my practice. How what is the ACC? Because me as a private practice lawyer, we usually go into associations that related more into the um the business because we would like to network with business people and with lawyers who are all in private practice. But I understood that you have an amazing organization that is worldwide organization that is very old one and it's called association of corporate councils and this is basically the bar association of the in-house lawyers. Can you tell us more about ACC and why are you the president? I cannot answer the question why I'm the president obviously but I can I can answer the rest of the of the question. Uh the ACC as you rightfully said it's the association of Cor of Corby council. It's um it is the bar association of the in-house councils. So we're talking about 46 47,000 members worldwide all into the membership of the ACC and the ACC is performing its activities. It's nonprofit organization established and exists in the US. uh they perform the activities by via chapters uh Asiaak chapter uh Europe and Middle East and North Africa. I would say that we are still very much underestimated here in the Middle East and North Africa. I was very lucky to be part of the ACC obviously as an in-house lawyer and then by time when I got the membership I started to get in and did some uh uh activities with them. I attended some of the events and I applied also for the board. So the board of the AC MENA is bi-election and you get in you know you get nominated and then the process goes on as you might know but it's not about me getting in the board or taking the presidency but about the ACC itself what does it do what is it uh so imagine a nonprofit organization offering all in-house councils all over the globe trainings some of them are free totally free material up to the sky. The limit is the sky. Materials of legal materials, anything that you can think of, you can find it there. The opportunity of networking, you can you have access to these 47,000 members. You have their emails, their mobile phones. I mean, this is to private practice lawyer could be like heaven, right? Beautiful. How can I be a member? I can't, right? You cannot. The the only the one and only condition is to be an in-house lawyer. Obviously, right? I have to resign and find an in-house role for a year. Get in as as a spy. Yes. So, and then and then also we have like a legal magazine, law magazine. It's called docket. And we have articles and we have newsletters. It's like a wealth of everything pertains to the existence of in in-house lawyer. We have also certification a certification for in-house lawyers. In order to be an in-house lawyer, you need to have this certification or you if you have this certification, you will be a good in-house lawyer. Is true. It's like continuous learning programs, but it's not mandatory. It's just an option for in-house lawyers to learn more. It is um but you know the most ironic thing about the most remarkable thing about the ACC uh is definitely the networking with other lawyers with other peers. Ahmed, you know that the the problem with in-house lawyers is we sit in our offices and our desks in silos. We don't know what's happening in the outer world. Unlike you guys in private practice, you have this machines of promoting and and and and putting you in the market, positioning you properly. You have a machine behind you. We don't I mean it's not in a good sense. I mean we don't need this also but but we need to to speak to each other to understand you know how I have started in uh in 2017 with a colleague of mine um uh she she she was the uh general council of one of the pharmaceutical companies and she's still a very good friend of mine. Uh we have started this platform for in the in-house councils in Egypt. uh and you know how this came from there was a new uh regulations and we were talking to each other over the phone and I told him have you have you seen this regulation it's uh it's going to be affecting this and that I of course I don't remember now I said no I haven't heard of it okay I will send it to you but listen don't do anything I'll just push it to the CFO to handle it and which and then I I we say why we don't have something a black form that we can actually exchange this little info that can help us while we're sitting there to at least understand what's happening in the outer world. Yeah. We started this platform, a WhatsApp group and group on LinkedIn. The two of us now we are 600 lawyers. Yeah. Uh thankfully I've started thanks to God I've started another one also in 2019 when I moved here to UAE. Now we're almost 500 inhouse lawyers. We love private practice lawyers. They are our colleagues, friends and family and everything else but they are not part of this. Yes. No, I understand very well the the the the difference and that's why you know I I have something similar as well but for a mixed purpose not just private practice and in-house. I I put the whole ecosystem and I call it Emirates Legal Network and it's going really phenomenally and it's working very well. But I understand the value of community and being able to belong to um to a community with shared needs and shared values and shared targets. Um what what what do you think ACC provide for um I don't know new lawyers coming out coming to the UAE for example. Do you advise all lawyers relocating in-house lawyers relocating to the UAE to join? Uh, thank you. This is very good question by the way. Uh, we have two types of I'm not here to promote the AC by the way. Yeah, obviously. But but but you should join Emirates Legal Network. That's my network. I'm promoting Emirates Legal Network. Because because this is a nonprofit anyways and we are not required to to uh No, I understand very much. Uh but it's it's like I feel like for any in-house lawyer, it's like something that you need to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's like if I am a general counsel and I have a team uh of lawyers, obviously in-house lawyers and I have a budget for training that can easily go into this. You can use this bud little little of this budget into the something like the AC and you will get free trainings and other stuff. It's this but but this is again not about promoting the ACC. Now we're talking about what the young in-house lawyers uh or or or in-house lawyers who are coming from different jurisdictions to uh our country here or to our region uh would they get yes we have two types of memberships individual and corporate uh membership. So if someone is in a certain corporate a company if he's relocating from Europe from the US from Asia to here by default he will move with the membership. So we'll get all the benefits. But for young lawyers, allow me to say something Ahmed that u uh I feel very proud of and I need to say it here. We have just won the best strategy uh the best membership strategy award uh globally Mena. Okay. We've won uh the best membership strategy award which is a very prestigious award by the way. You know why? No. because we have done some very small the butterfly effect small things that reflected really great things. uh the region is wide and vast and we have many countries in the region but some of them and they have legal communities in every each company a country of these right but they are not well it's like green field we call it green field project by the way because uh you need to help these uh in-house layer community with your services with the network with everything and it's not untouched so we started this bit by bit and now we had for the first time events in Oman network events in Kuwait, in Egypt, Tunisia and it's going on and on uh with this butterfly effect as I'm telling you for the younger uh generation and even younger than the grads the fresh grads uh we have also came up with a very uh I like it so I'm saying very nice project but we we have a very good project uh that we did with universities here in UEE and around the region as well This project is simply like a collaboration agreement whereby we're nonprofit whereby we say guys certain university please students bring limited number of them like we give bring them to our events let them use our website let let them use that training for free totally free for them to understand ahmed you know uh the uh the feed for low grads it's either judicial departments, private practice and in-house. Yes, there are others of course but they are the main three pillars feed for uh uh fresh grads in the uh from the law schools. In the law school you get some judicial experience you get to mood course you do this stuff private practice lawyers you buy exp by default this is again as I said it's the manufacturer of lawyers shadow anyone and they will become great exactly but inhouse you just if you land a job once you graduated as in in inhouse as in a company or what would you do you need help if you're from day one with this initiative ives with these endeavors getting into network understanding how the community looks like and how at least you have a flavor of how the this job looks like and how successful this program was like with it's yeah we just initiated this year. Yeah. uh but one of our board directors she's doing a phenomenal job with the universities. Universities are the appetite of the university is very high which which also reflects how these universities are keen not only to just educate the normal law or legal topics but they are very much also into enhancing the profiles of their students. It shows we have we have very some good number of collaboration with with number of university I'll not mention now but it will be published very soon I'll tell you honestly I also worked a lot with very young lawyers coming out of universities and I find them very much ready they are amazing they're so advanced compared to what we were in in our generation for example because what they what they have access to is unbelievable what what you're saying now They they they they have all the your training program and all the documents and templates that the ACZ provide. But I know Lexus Nexus is doing the same. Um Thompson Reuters is doing the same. The university libraries are unbelievably huge right now. Pick and choose and and have the is digital. So they are very very smart and ready. Do you actually have in your work place like in Simmons Energy or in the ACC opportunities to place them to work or just mentorship? Thank you again. Thank you very much. You're asking very good questions uh as usual. Uh no I'm I'm very proud and and happy to be uh uh part of semens energy because uh over the past four five years uh we have hosted large number of internships job shadowing stu lo students large number and I'm telling you that's really the thing that bring excitement to our office really and we don't just host them and to spend. I tell them when they come in, I tell them, "Guys, thank you. Welcome to Sims Energy. I can now sign a recommendation letter to you that you have been here in a job shadowing for couple of weeks, for one month. You can take it today now and just go home, enjoy it, use it, put it on LinkedIn, whatever it is. or spend this month with us. Learn everything. Shadow everyone. Ask them please take me to this meeting to that meeting and actually learn what we are doing here in and out. It's up to you and it always work. It always work. It always work. They they nag us with questions and they are very inquisitive as you rightly said. But you know what is the ironic thing as you also said rightfully uh all of them 99.99% of them uh do you have a LinkedIn they say yes. Oh wow amazing my LinkedIn account was I don't know when was it throughout this career journey but they are very vigilant to what they should do and I emphasize on it. I tell him okay your task is by end of this month I need to see 500 connections. I will tell you something will fade away except for this these connections because your network is your net worth and these are this is the the golden formula for each and every lawyer. Your network you know this I know it everybody knows it right but these people they know they need to know it as well. People will forget that Ahmed Nagar was here, Muhammad Muy was there, but they will never forget their connections and they will see ah yes I remember this Ahmed Nagar I met. Of course you're a celebrity but I mean for for younger generation if I got my point I mean it's definitely in SE energy know we encourage we emphasize on having more and more we I'm I'm personally and management everybody within the team as well we are very happy to receive people doing job shadowing and internships in semen energy and we never say no to anyone never you sure are you sure about that we have we haven't said it to anyone we have Do you think there's some advises or like everybody's who's involved in mentoring or or working with young generation are giving them advices and I think their head is full of these advice. Do you have anything that you would like to to add to that like to give your own style of advice? I spoke about the the the communication and networking and and uh and the power of silence. It helps when you start right. um as an advice but uh but also it is important for for this young generation when they it's not for them only you know the problem with mentorship programs and I have this experience this akur moment when the mentee and the mentor are sitting there smiling at each other's faces drinking coffee somewhere and they don't have any topic to speak about or just chatting about nothing so what I've done to overcome come this not not me I mean group of people I was uh honored to be part of it as well. Uh we set this I call it the six phase program uh 6 months at least six meetings and six six steps. So what happen is you set the meeting on teams on zoom or whatever you already preset but in every single one of these six you have a full agenda. Now AI can help you with it. You can create it. You can't spoke it. It's up to you. But you can do something, right? Yeah. But when you get into the meeting when you're busy schedule and everything else, you oh, I have mentorship. But when you open the calendar, ah, I have an agenda today. We're going to speak about his or her personal life, my personal life, and I have this struggle. I have because people like to hear uh failures which taking me to another point has nothing to do with the mentorship. Uh I had this sad experience uh 10 years back even more uh someone asked me to share my success and with fresh grads in one of the elite law schools in the region anams university. So okay and the room was full of people and I was there and I spoke about I went from this country to that country and from this uh job to this job and uh the company is a I was very happy I don't know about them but they were listening and then suddenly and that was an eye openener to me right suddenly one of the audience said please thank you very much it's uh it's a great journey and but what what is what's what's for us what can we do but how how this could help us to to do to succeed and follow the steps we don't know even how to follow that the step and that was an eye openener of course at that time I just did the the cliche stereotyping uh answer of work hard and but but I was not even convinced with what I'm saying and at that time I I bledged and I said to myself no it's not about me nobody cares about me nobody cares about people and their successes and what they are doing. I don't care. Yeah. It's all about the others. I what is going to be reflecting on me? Well, there's also one thing that I would like to add is so many of the successful very smart and funny and uh accomplished people like yourself, they tend to to give a lot of the the happy or the the positive advis. No one tell these young generation that you're going to work very very long hours. No one's going to tell them that this is one of the most um stressful jobs and no one tell them that the statistics show that this is the job with one of the highest levels of depression between professionals worldwide. No one's giving them the the reality check of okay you're going to dress up in a very nice suit. A lot of people are going to come run after you to ask you questions. You're going to be socially accepted as a very smart man, but it has a price. Yeah. No, no, I agree 100%. I don't know what to say now. Actually, you said it all, but u but again maybe I I didn't wrap up the the last story in anams at that day. I decided to share my failures. Yeah, it helps a lot. I I this is what I need to share with people. I failed in doing this. I failed in doing that. This is exactly what I need to f to share with everyone. Yeah. Including but not limited to my family as well. I love that. But including but not limited to but you know but you know that uh uh choices are important as well. Yes. and and and huge part of it is not only your due diligence and and checking the and balance the pros and cons of every single decision that you're taking huge part of it also is uh um I wouldn't say luck but it's like uh from Allahh this is something that you cannot it's not tangible but it's there yes you made some changes since you joined the ACC and I understand that you have made some um projects and events and so on. What's your plan to drive the mission of ACC in the Mina region? Like what's your strategy? Uh first off, it's definitely not me. We are a full board and great team behind the scene. Uh all of us working together uh to make this achievement and this when you say achievement, I I thank you very much for it. Um but we are looking into numbers as well. Um and we find that the visibility of our pages the uh reach and how people are interacting and it's not only me it's it's like accumulative and and not only this board by the way accumulative work of the previous boards previous people that volunteered the Ahmed without any income or something gain or something that will really reflect on them financially or they just volunteerly willingly giving it all to helping the community and I and I even when I speak to to the board I tell them guys we are we signed up to this volunteerly for the in-house community we love this community we're part of it we want to enhance it improve it and we wanted to get the best quality of everything ACC is the platform that is helping us do this well and good so what happened is with this positive approach positive intent and pure genuine love to the community itself. The whole board's year after year reached to where we are at the moment. Double the visibility, triple the visibility, the number of of followers. Uh the the and ACC Ahmed comes with quality for all our uh network events, all our interactions are the top quality also in the region. Most of my guests they I ask them a few questions that's not related to the law so for example uh I would like to know what are you a coffee or a tea person coffee coffee for sure so what what's your coffee uh let's say in the morning and I don't it's just one coffee a day yeah maximum two oh okay if if things going south most of my guests as well they all have hobbies that completely outside the legal field and they they do it with people who are non- lawyers because they want to detach completely from the stressful date. So for example, Dr. Habil Mullah is a is a foodie. Everybody knows he he goes around reviewing restaurants. I have uh Mr. Hussein alib from he's he loves horses and he have his own stable in stable in in in Europe. So what's your uh hobby that is outside of the law? I mean I know you're acting from time to time and you have done a movie. I'm acting all day long. Yeah. I think uh I think acting singing sometimes very it's hobby right so it's and not professionally. No tell me I've seen I've seen a link one of your uh very close friends have sent me a link about a drama movie was like it was a short one. Tell me about that. It was by but it was comic as well. Uh no that's it's funny story actually. So uh my son's friends are graduating from film directing in uh New York University and then uh they have a project of a movie and then my son called me one day and said my f my friends are asking for a mid-40s actor for one of the movies. I signed you up. You're done. you're in. I said, "Okay." Wow. And then I thought, uh, okay, it's going to be like 30 minutes, 1 hour. I will go there, do play the role, and and and walk away. I spent 3 days from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 without exaggeration. 9:00 a.m. till 11:12 p.m. A.M. Yeah. I mean, like full day. Yes. Non-stop. And it was like full setup of all equipment and people running and silence and action and everything else. It was very good experience. forget about the movie itself and and um and the result which was great. They they won uh best movie in 2024 in the university. Uh but but the experience itself was was phenomenal. It's really something that takes you out of the daily routine of of our beloved job, right? Uh for this acting thing is is one thing and uh and I do singing as well. I did some lyrics for uh uh for songs that I sang myself and my son does the composing but it's hobby. It's never saw the light and I I love it when if it sees the light nobody will be interested to watch or listen to but that's it. I mean it's it's it's odd um hobby but uh but this what makes me feel like I think it's great. I think it's great. I'll tell you about 10 years ago and this is a true story. I was invited by one of my friends to uh to uh do dubbing you know uh voice over. Ah voice over. Yeah. So our job that fits you very well by the way. Really? Okay. Our job was to read the translation of Indian movies where the translation in is into English and I will do the dubbing which is the voice over in Egyptian Arabic. Oh, for Indian movies that is aired in Saudi. Good combination. Yes. And I got paid for the job. I got for every movie I played at least two characters and I got paid 1,500 dirhams per movie. I did three movies in my career as a dubbing uh actor voice over and uh I made the the money for it until the owner of the studio realized that u I uh pronounced the letter R in a wrong way. Oh, interesting. So he said like Ahmed's voice is not good enough in Arabic. In English. In English. Sure. R is not. Yeah. My R r my R is not an R. Yeah. So that was my last. But we love it. We love We love our R. Right. Yeah. And it was really nice. But it was really fun. After after work, I go at 6:30 and I do uh studio recordings for uh one or two hours playing one or two rolls. Very nice. No, that's that's really good to know. And u But you remember how excited way you when you were doing this? very really that's what I'm saying and I mean when I was recording the the song that will never see the life I felt like again that's my true feeling I was like flying I was like over the sky singing listening to my yeah listening to my voice in in the mic and singing that was something we're going to try to get this recording for you I'll do my best you know something else about the hobbies it's not a hobby but I was I was about to uh lose my way to legal profession into the sales profession. I told you I decided when I was very little young to be a lawyer. But then when I graduated all my colleagues, engineers and people coming from all other in loose sorry colleges they work in a multinational companies and you know the vibe and I like the idea. I said no let me try myself right and then somebody recommended me and they sent me for um sales job and also I was driven by everybody meets me and he knows me for the first time he said by the way you're a very good sales man you can do sales okay Ahmed it happened three times I'm going to the interview my CV is there I'm a look grad it's obvious I cannot change this but I'm speaking I oblige I know I'm going I'm not speaking anything but law or legal stuff or nothing. We go on and on and on and on. The hiring man manager at the end he says you know what you could be a good lawyer but not we never spoke about we never spoke about it. He said, "Tell me, do you like money?" I said, "Yeah, but listen, money is is a mean, not an aim." This philosophical, I said, "My friend, if I'm hiring a sales guy, I do you like money?" He said, "I love money. If you say any other answer, I will not take you as a salesman." He's not a sales. So, anyways, um that that would have been a mistake anyways. I would have s sold anything. Right. Going back to the career thing just before we wrap up this episode, if someone wants to be the next um general council of Seammen's energy or any of that kind of big company, what are the three main advises or three main traits that they should have fill your seat in the future? Yeah, first off, he he or she he has to get rid of me and and a lot of other people's energy. U no, I think uh I think again it's not it's an accumulative work. It's not something that you're going to do one two three and then you'll be a wonderful fantastic uh inhouse council whatever uh it's accumulative work you build I you know what I call it I tell I tell my friends and colleagues from the younger generation uh collect the medals now it's time for you to take more medals and make sure that we are a sellable commodity make sure that you are celible. How? Everything. It's your personality, your logic, your analytical skills, your communication, your your network, which is your net worth, everything else. It's it's a combination of everything together. There's no advice. If you want advice, get to AI, uh sh GBT, right? They will give you not three, 10. But I'm telling you, just start early, have self-confidence. Uh Set your mindset properly, everything will be fine. It's a matter of energy. We are all energy. If you have the right energy, if you motivate yourself to have the positive energy will do it, right? And on the other hand, how what is the practical way to become a board member of the ACC or become a valuable member first to the ACC community and as well afterwards join the board. All members of the AC are valuable members. uh and then we have each year we have u a proper election uh normally uh the applications uh received in October and then the process goes in November and we have annual general assembly to approve uh and endorse the uh the new board for the coming year each year it's happening and the nominating committee is always like um diversified from board members current board members and some other uh colleagues in-house colleagues who are senior enough and also uh not in the board to give some uh independency as you can imagine. Um and of course uh the ACC global get gets involved into the process of course for the all the good reasons. Uh but this is how to get uh but but this is the process. If you want to be a board member into the AC show up be there uh help the community love the community be part of it in a positive way. Done. Thank you for the lovely conversation and thanks for being here. We uh enjoyed a lot. I enjoyed a lot. Uh I'm sure you will and um we leave you uh in peace to enjoy the rest of the week and happy to see you here. Ahmed, thank you very much for having me. That's a great honor and thank you very much for considering me into this great show which I'm following up me and others uh heavily. Uh and it was very short. I wanted to take for more three four hours. You know this curse, right? the curse of there's a lot of a a lot a lot more to talk about and uh hopefully we'll bring you back here for other discussions or maybe to speak French next episode. Thank you everybody for watching. This was the president of uh association of corporate council Mina and this was the general council of semens energy middle east and see you next