[Music] Sports law probably the only legal subject that when you ask any general lawyer about it he will tell you I have no clue this is the niche area that only the Specialists know about and understand all its ins and outs today in Monday Legal we have our guest Karim Abaza welcome Karim good morning morning Ahmed thank you very much for hosting me it's a big big pleasure to be here with you on Monday legal one of the very Pioneer lawyers one of the very I would say special lawyers that our relationship goes long way back the founder of Emirates lean Network one of the very very remarkable and notable I would say legal Community for all lawyers as well as the founder of the jurist and now on the Monday legal host for a podcast hosting lawyers so uh yeah I'm really flattered I'm pleasured to be with you thank you very much thank you very much for the introduction I was planning to introduce you now you're introducing me thank you so much Karim is the general Council of Al jazer Sports and cultural club and today we're going to ask Kim our regular first question what's your coffee uh mine is espresso okay actually double espresso with a little bit of uh hot milk on top how many glasses how many cups of coffee you have every day three to four three to four yeah yeah especially after the meals you have to have one that's it comes with the meal but the morning I need at least two of them to Kickstart my day I try to limit myself to three a day but uh when when there are more meetings there always more coffee not for lawyers maybe for an engineer would work but for lawyers especially a lawyer like you I know it's it's you would need a lot of coffee yeah unfortunately yeah my day is very long but I enjoy it I love it um I want to ask you a question where did you start with sports law I would like you to introduce yourself this time you made a very nice introduction about me I would like that you make an even better introduction about yourself so that we know where did you start with the law in general and how did you go into sports law sure it uh it's actually uh I'm a little bit camera shy so that's why I would like you know I hope you don't mind if I just skip certain things sometimes I don't maintain eye contact because it's just of the being a camera shy so simply I would I would take it from the from the professional level so I I've started as a lawyer here in 2008 first I got my Bachelor's of law in English section from Anam University in Egypt in 2007 started my first legal job with shalakhani Law Firm here as a legal council in 2008 until 22 then moved to another Law Firm bazim Associates formerly known as B Shaban Associates and then moved to Denton en Co and then done with my private practice time for like almost six to seven years and then moved in-house to United Technologies Corporation senior legal council with uh two different businesses otus and carrier and then got myself into otus elevator's business and then moved to grohi Middle East which is sanitary wear bathroom Solutions household as a uh comp legal and compliance officer for the region of the Middle East North Africa East Mediterranean and during that time I've done my masters completed my master's degree in global sports management and sports law from business from ISD law business school in Barcelona I've done this remotely online and during the pandemic time um I've joined the gazer Sports and Culture Club as their group senior legal council um sports lawyer slbo secretary head of sports Affairs and that was exactly my first sports job or first job as a lawyer in a sports field in a Sports organization um despite the fact that Al Gaza Sports and Culture Club is not just only about the football it's a kind of a holding group that holds under it number of subsidiaries the football company other sports uh the football company here means the football the professional football team the other sports teams which is volleyball basketball uh jiujitsu as well as the handball and also they have an investment art in capital Investments re estate Investments they have a hotel and Hospitality uh branch and they do have as well the commercial arm of the of the of the group so this is what I would pinpoint that that was my first sports job but let's go 10 years earlier a little bit I'm a football fanatic I'm a football enth to a to an extent that uh it's it's very hard very hard to deny it I started with playing a game some people may not believe that story but I started by playing a game over the PCS called Football manager game it's a very very boring game for those who are uh fans of like you know fans of very I would say very interesting games or Graphics because it's a statistics games like kind of a news bar flashing some dots moving on the screen but a lot of analysis a lot of numbers and I became addicted to that game this game is simply you're managing the football team you are doing your uh your own rooster every season you're signing players you're offloading players you're managing a team hiring Scouts hiring a sporting director hiring a coach even and putting the tactics the game simply took me over like for 12 to 14 years of playing that game and the game developed itself as a features to an extent that it became very very close to reality so I I can I can claim now maybe the credit goes to them that my day in office doesn't look really very much different than what my day in the game everything in terms of the players in terms of the statistics the decisions you have to make and the game became decision based so with the game in in one side with my love to the law and the other side um I decided okay I want to do something that really Blends both especially football which is going to be we're going to use it a lot today um and when I first started my job with Al gazer it's it gave me that the access to the football World the access to the sports world and it kicked off from that time wow very interesting so so you actually started with the game yeah the entertainment side of gaming when we were much younger that what hooked you up into sports law indeed that's very interesting and before Ela didn't do any transactions related to sports maybe one except one transaction it was involving also it was remarkable at that time it's transaction involving a legend in the football which is Diego Armando Maradona I got a chance to meet him or to see him actually from 4 M away but I I I think I'm trying every day every day to say that the distance was closer not 3 m 2 m and no one was there you can say whatever you like yeah actually it was a very it was a football talent show and he was the guest host he was the main host it's first time in the Middle East to have that show when was that I think 2013 12 or 13 almost he used to live here I think he was coaching alw he was coaching alw at that time and he was the guest host for the show dealt with his lawyer I waved to him and he waved to me so I put it in my CV Maradona waved back to me so it was like the hand used it for actually it's a big deal it's a big deal yeah that's what I told him in the CV I mean the interview with Al gazer do you have any Sports Experience yes I do I mean Maradona we back to me so that's very nice um the switch between jurisdictions like in Egypt and then you you move to the UAE and the switch between Private Practice into in-house uh in in in in completely different field than than Sports law and then jumping into sports law after the pandemic with with Al jazer how what how did that happen I mean I've been a corporate lawyer in private practice all my life that's that's what I do that's what I know I didn't try anything else I think it's very remarkable that you can switch between these professions and tell me about it what was your experience it's uh I would say it wasn't that easy but at the same time it's prompt because you know in in our field as lawyers the key asset for you is the learning so from a day from a job to a job from private practice to in-house the key I mean the key motive for you here is what you're going to learn here what you're going to learn there if you're sitting at the Private Practice side you're advising a client who comes to you asking for a certain advice when you're advising as an in-house counsel you switch the table seat you just sit inside the business and you start advising about or you started giving the advice from the from your knowledge of how the business is operating so it depends on the level of information you have as a private practice lawyer you can as we all know you can give an advice subject to a lot of caveats disclaimers and the clients need to really find out their their comfort zone how to apply at at the same time maybe you know that you know you would know the client more and you would give him better advice than he's in-house since you are neutral you don't have any kind of influence U in-house for me is uh was was more favorable because I thought I thought at that time that it would give me the I would say the Comfort little bit in terms of the timelines in terms of the work it's it's one client it's not 100 exactly one line of business no 10 years later I discovered that it's not the case to be honest yeah U it's not very it's not like you know it's not very work life balance friendly I mean you really have to to exhaust a lot of time in order to support your client because you're available for them and I think it's also the same thing for Private Practice lawyers between corporate and governance and Commercial to the sports it's it's not a very big distance to cover because again the sports as a sports when the people ask about it they think it's a okay that's the game that we see on Monday or we see on the over the weekend the the the players the jerseys and everything but behind the TV there is a whole world which is also formed of corporate governance compliance uh commercial labor intellectual property everything and the football or the sports industry itself developed itself in a in a certain manner that it became a very regulated business so the presence of lawyers and finance years and H hard support functions is really vital for the sustainability and even for the operations for the day-to-day operations um again for the for the sake of of knowing much more about the sports you can just check how many regulations are applicable on each sport so for the football business for example for the football World you've got jurisdictions going down from the FIFA the Asian Confederation to the uee uh Federation even sometime to the club group of uh I mean the club or the the club policies and regulations uh and then down to the contracts so it's a it's a very regulated I would say uh Behavior or very regulated uh uh medium business that you you really need to follow you need to follow everything um and also definitely to support the the sports industry you would need the commercial arms so this is also or you need the commercial revenues so this is where also lawyers are needed so you need to advise your business on how to commercialize this sport in order to generate Revenue have a revenue streamline and get an income for the media contracts and it comes the advertising and the merchandise and all this it started as a very I would say um very basic business and at the time I think by now it became like a very regulated business very profitable uh very I would say very investment attractive for a lot of investors that they know how to capitalize and they would know how to make money out of it as well as make profits on a sustainable basis the only thing which is still behind a little bit around the world is how can the clubs try or how can the especially in the football World how can they make themselves sustainable more and to rationalize their expens expenditures and guarantee some good return on investment because you know it's it's all about the performance of The Players yeah this something I noticed that the whole um Middle East right now is investing so much into sports in in Egypt is really booming in Saudi as we all know that that they have invested so much into sports the UAE as well I think Saudi and UA have invested the most in the Middle East true Saudi invested in their own League by buying a lot of players and coaches and and develop the football inside also Egypt did the same here in the UAE they invested abroad a lot I mean the the league of course have developed here very much compared to 10 15 years ago but at the same time you find a lot of investment holding companies here let's say own UK or or teams in in in France and teams abroad U how do you you see the direction of the the U in general into sports are they going to invest more outside or going to invest here more yeah I think also qar cannot be excluded from the equation I'm sorry to miss I'm sorry I'm sorry got a lot of good clients over there um honestly everyone understood that the sports it's again how can they what would be the best modu to Benchmark with when you when you're looking at sports is the entertainment business it's an entertainment venue that attracts a lot of fans attracts a lot of sales to merchandise to tickets and even it helps you to develop a lot of other Industries you're talking about the transportation the the the merchandise the food and beverages um everything lawyers business everything so it's a big anchor for business and when the uee comes to the to the picture they definitely know that the sports in the UAE here occupies a big portion of the people lifestyle as well as interest because you have like you know it's a hub for uh multi nationalities and you will find people coming from different backgrounds and uh um and and coming from different places where they really they really are used to watch football every weekend like if we take the Premier League for example the the league in in England in the UK it's one of the most profitable businesses maybe I would say ever I'm not sure how much the number is but you can see that a game that have been played between the team that occupies the last place and the pre-last place and the stadium is full so you can imagine how much businesses have been I would say living on that how much businesses have been benefiting from this um not just only the clubs themselves even the the game has been has been broadcasted and the TV rides been paid here and there commercials have been uh done here and there so definitely uee they know how to factor that into a proper investment and I I agree with you a lot of lot of investment companies here in around the UAE they started directing their focus on uh and even in Saudi as well who just acquired uh Newcastle one of the very prestigious clubs in the in the in the Premier League U you can see that the purpose is not just only from a prestigious perspective I'm not going to say that I own a football club in the UK just for the sake of making it uh no they're actually making good profits exactly and it's a very good investment Hub um maybe 20 years back the main profit from the football business mainly from the sports I would I would take the football as it's the most sound example was coming from the sales I mean transfer of players I would say offloading of the players but that's not the case anymore this became like and the balance sheet of the clubs it became like um I would say could represent 30 40% but this is not the guaranteed money that you guarantee for the investors when they try to invest in the club the other things associated with that the facilities use the merchandise the sales the publicity um as well as the other Associated Investments like I'll give you a small example one Club they decided to launch a full Hub full like full e-gaming Hub around their around their stadium so even if you don't have a seat inside the stadium you would still be able to watch the game via VR and they're selling the the the the ticket for that equivalent to the price of the ticket inside the stadium so they're using the stadium as an anchor and Real Madrid when they've done their Renovations in s Santiago bernabo they simply changed the use of the facility itself not just only from a football pitch it became a multi-purpose and it can be changed in a day from a football pitch to a rugby pitch uh pitch to uh also um to uh what we call it um uh concerts pitch everything yeah so definitely if you're an investor and definitely you need to be a good investor uh with good cash on on the table and willing to take a long-term investment definitely sport as your work you can see also here the UAE they've done significant investments in sports like the paddle tennis in jiujitsu um even when it comes to sports uh that are not very well well commonly known like the speedboats like the formula so it is somehow a very Innovative way of okay I need to make an entertainment business business work I mean make it more entertaining and at the same time I need to to get my Revenue back or need to get my investment return so I think yeah and Saudis as you said Investments they've done into the league over there they raised the value for the league I think by maybe 50 to 60% of the actual value U Saudi enjoys I would say a better advantage over Qatar maybe in the UAE because of the population yes uh but as you as everyone saw during the World Cup they managed to make a World Cup which cannot be matched um hopefully one day uee with the capabilities they do have over here they're I'm sure they would they would be hosting a fantastic World Cup one day because they have already done major events and that's not and they're not very far away from that to be honest no I think I think from the abilities the UAE probably is more ready than any other um country in the Middle East to to host a World Cup it could be a such just an event I mean one of the one of the things that the UAE can do is not a is not a big deal I think just getting uh the the the event itself is the is the thing Karim can you tell us a little bit about uh what do you actually do in the in in in in these Sports contracts what what does it include do you handle the contracts between the players and the club or the other contracts that you handle as well I I imagine there are many but I would like to know from you uh yeah exactly I mean I don't know from where to start but yeah definitely let's take the football side as well so yeah the contract between the player and between the club which is I would represent the the club in that case uh the player is simply signing some sort of an employment contract similar to the employment contract signed anywhere um in the UAE however with a very specific Clauses to complying with the regulations uh governing the football business specific or the football industry itself um so the close or the contract as a as a contract it includes all of the other all of the standard Clauses that we do have a duration term salary notice period everything um and then you've got the contract between the clubs so because if you're acquiring a player from another club or even loaning a player or offloading a player you need to have a contract sign and all of those contracts even the contract for the player the contract for the club and the contract with the agent that brought that that player or the agent representing the club uh because the FIFA they've got a regulation which is governing the FIFA which is the agents the football agents specifically um that they need to be representing the player or the club so three types of contracts when it comes to any transaction all those three contracts need to be uploaded on the FIFA TMS which is the transfer matching system where really FIFA has to look through it and approve the transaction so it's a very regulated uh regulated process and then you've got also the sponsorship contracts which are usually signed between the club and between the sponsors between the the the private businesses that would like to invest more into the sponsorship they would like to buy the back of shirt the front of shirt for the full season or even sometimes they would like to feature the name around the facility when you have their names on the sign board on the LED screens U even on the sometimes on on some of the private um some of the private I would say merch for the players so um for example you might find a player who who prefers to to wear a certain perfume so the player himself he would sign a sponsorship sometimes the players they approach Us in order to help them with that and even the club sometimes they do it for the players as a good incentive for them um and then you've got all of the other Associated contracts with respect to the sports itself so the venue leasing I mean if you're leasing a venue or if you're leasing a stadium to a third party there is a contract should there's a contract involved when you are uh offloading I would say we talked about the offloading um when you talk about like you know certain services that are supporting the football so if you are going to ask a certain person to travel like to another country to watch a player for you that's called a scouting contract so service providers as well and then you've got all of the other standard contracts that we know which is simply the maintenance of Maintenance of the pitch maintenance of the stadium facility management employment contracts with the uh with the staff I mean like any other business but in the sports specifically the two significant ones are the football transactions and the sponsorships because they are in the core of the football business or in the sports business in general I I saw in your in in in in in your answer a few words that um that that I would like to ask you have the players you have the scouts you have the agents and you have the lawyers you have the there's a lot of people involved and when you said that they are regulated are each one of them have separate regulations and uh for them as a professional do they have a register for example that they register as a scout and where does this where does this register fall yeah so the definitely they are definitely they are so if we if we take the players themselves now the FIFA they launched something called the FIFA ID so each player has his own unique ID and this ID is linked to his electronic passport which is not the personal passport it's called electronic player passport so the player cannot move from a club to a club without using that passport which has all the clubs he trained at all the places when he was first registered what was his previous Club but it doesn't include a lot of financial information about the player how much he used to earn or so he's like a a professional background it's a professional background player and and also the player if he is going to get transferred from a club to a club this has to happen through the same regulated process it has to happen from a club which is registered with as a professional club or maybe as an amateur Club in any of the divisions um and if if it involves an international Dimension so the players transfer from a country to a country this has to go through another platform with its own set of regulations so and the clubs have to get U if a club actually is in a certain way would like to do such kind of transactions they need to make sure they are having the license to uh the professional license every season in order to be abled or enabled to transfer a play and you have to pay all the dues all the payments everything overdue nothing outstanding otherwise you might get a like because some of the clubs they might have a transfer ban so uh yes when so when it comes to the clubs the clubs is the first stakeholder that needs to be uh heavily regulated and they are heavily regulated by the FIFA regulations and by the confederations by the Continental Confederation that is managing that area so for example in Egypt uh the calf which is the African uh African Confederation football Confederation is managing the entire continent entire Africa and then under that they have the level which is called the football local Football Association here in the U they've got the Football Association as well they represent the FIFA jurisdiction in the UAE uh when it comes to the Asian Confederation the jurisdiction over the clubs uh has been managed and regulated here by something called the UAE professional League Association which is the which is the association managing the professional league and this is the body that gives you the licensing every season to compete without that license which is again another level of compliance between audit governance legal sports facilities security media name it it's a manual that gets issued every year the club has to be fully compliant in order to get the license to play in the professional League agents of course the agents they are the very important stakeholder because they represent the clubs when it comes to to or represent the players when it comes to acquiring a player uh by a club and they have to be now registered by the FIFA through a certain platform they have to for an exam like the bar exam and this they have to get certain credit points and they have to make this kind of uh uh reporting on a regular basis to the people on the transactions they do Scouts uh I don't think there is anything that is is regulating Scouts as a scout however the technical qualifications in order for you to pay any or to get any Scout you need to be technically qualified to do that so a lot of people they their activities must be regulated contractually contractually and the Scout The Scouting your in order to be able to be paid as a scout uh you don't need to go through the FIFA regulations but again you will go through the local regulations here so this this scout has to be like having a license in thee for example to have to do some kind of football consultancy business yeah otherwise if you try to pay a person who just says I saw that player you won't have any money left yes CU everyone sees a good player somewhere yeah um you've got also the other part which is the U uh the coaches which is very important yes 3 four years back coaches were were never regulated under the FIFA regulation or were not properly regulated under the FIFA regulations the coach was just having an employment contract like any employee however the nature of his business mandates stability a certain level of stability um so the FIFA they enacted a new regulation also protecting the coaches and the relationship between the clubs and between the coaches so it's a very as I as I told it's a very regulated Behavior it's it looks simple on the TV but honestly speaking at the backside it's it's quite it's quite complex this is amazing I mean from what you're saying it looks like it's really very regulated and it's very organized why do we always read about uh a player signing for two clubs a coach that you know take a a flight ticket and never come back and uh I don't know I don't know someone signed a player and then he they come to the club and realize it's a different guy I mean I heard all the horrific stories in Africa in general if not in Egypt and I heard here as well and it happens in Europe it happens everywhere if it's so regulated why is this happening I mean the regulation is the rule I mean it doesn't mean that when you have the rule you you won't have people to try to not to cheat the rule but try to I would say find the safe Zone under the under the law or under the rule to to act again it's not illegal because those regulations I I think Ahmed you you would I would need to give you a little bit of more dates but I don't have any but those regulations are developing over the years yeah so when I talk about a coach his contract a coach regulation FIFA they thought about the coach to put him in a code or to put some kind of regulations to help that coach to have a stable contract four five years back but the coaches have been in the game for like 60 70 80 years so that this is this is actually um kind of they don't learn by trial and error but to a big extent there's a lot of examples and modules that are not regulated even or they are regulated but the regulation is very gray and you leave it to the uh Juris Prudence you leave it to the interpretation of the uh regulatory bodies themselves um so like for example we'll take an example in Egypt we we we actually the sports the football business or the football news in Egypt is specifically um I think it occupies huge attention of people especially when it's involving the two big polers um by the way I'm a fan of Al Club a very historical fan can't blame you can't blame you of course so uh honestly if you see like a player from alah he's not turning up to training you will see it all over the news but at the backside what happens with the club and the player the player has a disciplinary policy that he signs upon he needs to sign it and it has penalties like an employee so he's an employee but with a specific nature if an employee moves from a company to to a company without settling his dues or without getting paid his end of service benefits or even any uh any payments then he has the right to sue that former employer which is the same thing uh when when an employee leaves a company without canceling his Visa without settling his papers with that company and he goes to another company then you would definitely have some kind of disciplinary actions involved so this is where it comes from if we look at it as lawyers on the media side you would definitely see that the media is trying to Fel it up because it's very interesting it it involves a lot of insights lot of Paparazzi being involved viewership numbers exactly and we saw that player training that night with that club it does it mean that he signed and you will find huge fan base that would follow that they would go and they would do the search they would find the information most probably we have the biggest numbers of football uh analysts around the world it's in Egypt and most of them they are actually they are they are video bloggers so everyone has an opinion in for and that's a curse um the part which is how can you resolve it as a club how can you resolve it as a player or as a regulatory body it's simple put enough terms in the contract self-explanatory make sure that the player reads the regulations well the club knows the regulations well hire good lawyers whether at both sides and then whenever they put the conditions clear without any kind of uh vagueness uh you would leave a very little room for interpretation for the parties you would be also um I would say you would be not surprise but you cannot imagine the process itself if a player just got himself into that trouble what what would be the consequences or the club even the player could be banned from uh from from practicing football he could be banned from being transferred he could lose money clubs themselves they can U lose transfer fees that they've paid or even get themselves banned from uh from transferring players sometimes they get they lose points and in the in that world if you lose points you lose sponsors if you lose sponsors and you lose money you lose interest as well if you go to the second division the money that you receive or the revenues you receive for the broadcasting goes down so it's all it's all correlated it's a domino effect yeah and U Egypt there is a big fight between zalik Andi over one player okay and this player he likes to simp have this fight on air all the time because it will increase his value so even the players they utilize it in a certain way to to raise their margins a little bit when it comes to the negotiation and the clubs they do it as well because because it's and it's part of the beauty of the game you were supposed to sign that player for 1 million but as a club as your opponent your direct rival I made you sign him for three why because I know that when you sign that player for three you won't sign another player because your budget is five so the clubs keep doing those gimmicks all the time they play together even with the players themselves it's interesting but involves a lot of money and I I think it involves a lot of work in the back end as well with with all the contracts and this takes me to another question to you we've seen um a lot of pressure from the media yeah on uh the decision makers and football clubs and and sports facilities in general when it comes to um Behavior or or or legal liability of one of the players uh outside because the the the private life of of Sportsmen can put them in trouble as he said someone is sued for whatever reason someone is is is involved in in in I don't know igniting a media controversy and uh does the contracts does the sports contracts for players regulate that part with did what they do in their private life as well because it does affect the club and it does affect your the profitability of of the game or the the legal aspect of the contract do you put terms in the contract to regulate this part yeah big time Big Time We definitely try to draw the thin line between the the the private life of the player and between the professional life as a footballer but again both are linked in a certain way if a player is actually um is drinking or he's simply consuming drugs or he's not um he's not uh um he's not fit enough because he's he's been like you know spending a very uh very long hours U at his nightlife again if he doesn't show up in the training penalties will apply If he if this if this continues the club may have even um a higher level of disciplinary actions which is up to the termination of the contract and also termination of the contract for something called for just cause the most important thing is to make sure that the player has been called he's been heard he has the right to appeal any decision but again yes the clubs they do protect because the athlete uh again he signs he didn't sign to to be with available with the club 24/7 but his lifestyle and his mandates requires him to be fit to be healthy to turn up to the training ready to train which is the obligations that that he should have and if he's under the influence of any uh like you know drugs or alcohol during the training it's definitely a big big issue for the players some of the players they even go further and Beyond they get themselves involved in in in more worst issues uh like harassment like rape yeah and you've seen many examples of that most recently even in Europe again the club they've protected themselves the clubs they protected themselves by putting Clauses in there by saying that okay if the player is not is been convicted for a uh with a Criminal I would say with a Criminal conviction for doing something I would say that would defame the club or impair the image of the club or impair the name of the club uh definitely I have tried to protect myself and terminate the contract and even seek damages from the player and and this is this is very common uh some of the players again because of the the the their way of living in a certain way they end up their careers very early so you find a player who was top of the Premier League and I won't really I don't like to use names but seen players really earning very very prestigious and very good money in the Premier League and then uh you find them playing in second division somewhere in a country that you barely heard of simply because the clubs don't like troublemakers I want my 22 or my 25 players in the squad room to be U to be proper athletes even in any other sports even in the in the in the UFC you seen them doing the um the martial arts you see them like you know facing each other and they're trying like you know they're trying to to ignite the the fans by showing that there is a big rivalry and they can but again this is for the sake of the show but when it comes to the sportsmanship behind the scenes they definitely know that anything that they would do that would U I would say violate the regulations or violate what they signed for they know that they will be liable for huge compensations like what happened between the very famous fight between McGregor and between khabib when khabib left the cage and he jumped over there no one knows how much khabib was fined everyone knows that he was uh he was he was going to lose the belt in that game but no one knows how much he was fine he made other money later on because of this rivalry but at the same time no he violated the uh the cage regulations so in each and every aspect around the corner you will find a lawyer with a regulation and he's simply trying to enforce it in a certain way the smart way of of making sure the players or the athletes themselves to go into the line by simplifying it and making it customized in a certain way to an extent of course that it's easy to follow and it's hard to break so an athlete that comes to you every morning and you know that he's not running well uh you just need to take him for a BMI test to see how much does he have as a fat rate and you mark a target for him if you're not going to lose that fat within that much of like you know time you're not going to be ready for the competition you will lose money so the player will fall online because he know that I would lose my contract if I don't do that Kim I'm enjoying the conversation very much with you and I think I'm learning a lot and this will take me to the next question um we were we've been talking about the professional players and the football clubs on on a bigger level um but does the sports law regulate medical the the the the sports facilities as well because for example you represent Al jazer Sports and cultural um Club what about the Common People the the users of the facilities what what is the liability of uh the facilities or the liabilities of the common users toward each other if something wrong happened if one of the users of of the sports facility abuse the location and do something wrong in it or damage the the facility and other way around was the responsibilities of the sports facility uh towards uh its members it's very very important question really it's it's a very very wellth thought of question to be honest and U again it's um I would break it into two parts so for example if we take a private facility like a gym if someone is going to the gym he signed terms and conditions goes into that facility and something wrong happens to him at that at that facility um a machine a machine broke down something that caused damages usually in those terms and conditions you will find something called that you're training here on your own responsibility however this facility would never get any kind of license or a permit to operate without making sure that they have a public uh public damage or I would call it a public Indemnity insurance and even individual insurance and they would never be able to operate so they've got maybe third party Insurance comprehensive insurance against the normal risks but they will also have the personal indemnity Insurance because they are operating a facility that involves um um interaction between people and machines however at the same time again you need to see what you've signed for you may find you may find like kind of a waiver from your side that you would not claim any you would you would simply wave all your rights with respect to claiming any personal liability if you did not follow the rules so if someone likes to deadlift with 250 kg which is I know people uh doing that I was doing still to a certain point again and he breaks his back the facility cannot be responsible the facility would tell him simply you're training at your own responsibility at your own risk but if someone is just walking around the gym and and something wrong happens a machine just uh breaks down and it costed him like you know it it caused him kind of U of A severe injury sever injury or something they would definitely have the liability to treat the person they have their own facilities with the first aid kit next hospital they have a protocol and here in the uee specifically whether it comes to Dubai Sports Council Abu Dhabi Sports Council even Chara Sports Council the rules and regulations with respect to that in as well in addition to the rules of regulations of the of the corporate bodies here the the Department of Economic Development the municipality are are very very strict when it comes to the other side of the facility itself so let's for example take the the stadium if a fan is going into a stadium to watch a football game it's an entertainment venue that has rules and conditions I mean terms and conditions and when you buy that ticket you you agree to abide by those absolutely if the fan simply decides to leave the fan pit and to jump inside the pitch and then he get injured over there then he simply broke the rule and he caused himself like you know as if that the person he he I would say deliberately decided to to to to get injured because you're not supposed to be on the pitch so it's like getting out of the system guarantees that you don't get protection exactly and what and also as well those facilities the stadiums for example the set of regulations when it comes to civil defense when it comes to security when it comes to health and safety when it comes to um the way you are putting things even when you put the bottle of water if you put a bottle of water somewhere you might get violated you may get fined for it I mean not violated but you will get a big fine for it yeah U if the unauthorized people are having access to to to certain places then you get fined as well so it all depends on what you're signing on read the terms and conditions make sure that you check the facility before you go and at the same time as well the the the facility or the the owners of the facility or whoever is running it as a gym for example they have to compensate St in a certain way the person who gets an injury due to their default so again you will go back to the to the same concept that we all know of liability on Tor who's responsible who's responsible so you will go to the tort law like you know who who's responsible who it was who simply who did the mistake that consume the other person I mean again as it is yeah um one last thing also what about a football player you you signed up a player for like um I would say yeah number of Millions and the player just comes to you and he gets injured what's the how would the club simply be able to to to escape that loss because you've paid him already yeah and he got injured due to a reason related to work maybe he gets injured due to a reason of speeding up outside of the training because he's driving his Lambo and he decides to speed up so he made an accident again here you would draw the line whose fault it is is it the player simply doing this on a personal status maybe he's driving his Lambo and he lost his uh he loost he lost the balance and he's on the way to the training this even makes it more interesting simply the club could cover up because all of those professional players they need to be insured you need to ensure them against any kind of injury that happens to the player any kind of um um of something or I would say damage that happens to the health of the player or the player is not available to feature with you for a certain number of uh of games during the season Insurance can cover part of the salary but they cannot cover the full salary because some clubs they really go crazy with what they sign uh and what they pay for the players but they cover part of it but again you have to draw the line between whether it's something that happened due to a personal uh fault from the player side or it's something related to U the business or the work itself like us when we're going to work and uh God forbid something happens I'm insured because I'm I'm insured by my work in order to get treated for that but if it's for a misconduct from my side then yeah then then apply what what about the occasions when we see players get injured in the game that affect their life for example that affects their health performance for for for a while we've seen or or even I don't know um we we have we have an example of some players who are not able still young and injured and they're not able to to continue into sport again what is the liability within the framework if the play did nothing wrong and he's just doing the sport and he got injured or or sick during the time he uh with the club what is liability of the club to protect the player or to take care of his medical uh expenses for example yeah definitely that's another you're getting more deeper into sports Ahmed and and I'm learning from you now no actually it's a it's a pleasure uh definitely the player the insurance that you you sign for the players is designed in a certain way to protect them against those risks so it's not like the standard health insurance that anyone signs you have to have a professional Insurance specifically designed for the players and the nature of their business like when you insure people working in oil and gas sites it's not the Standard Insurance and it's specific companies are willing to take that risk for the sake of getting paid that much in terms of the uh of the premium that that that you pay because those are of very expensive insurance policies compared to the normal ones of course the club they have the liability or the obligation to insure the player with that Professional Insurance specifically for players the clubs themselves according to the regulation they do have certain U I would say certain obligation as well to continue paying the player his salary as long as he got injured during the during the game time or during doing his duty during the training even not just only the game time during the training the rehab at the gym at the showers um so they have to continue paying to certain extent and because you have a limited term contract it's not an unlimited um so you have to pay him part of that salary and then you've got the third part the third part of it which is simply the player himself I mean the player um he do have his own some of the players they come with their own personal Indemnity uh personal I would say personal insurances yeah you sign a superstar like for example Neymar so Neymar to a big extent yes he's insured by Hal he's got his own insurance and everything or has got the insurance of the club and the the contract is clear about that he's protected by FIFA regulations but uh do not rule out the fact that he's a superstar and he goes on private jets all the time he's traveling from a country to a country he's he's a celebrity in football so you he would definitely find him having his own personal insurance so the player is covered at the three aspects and definitely with the enhancements the clubs and the and the Regulators mandate the clubs right now to put on the facilities and even when it comes to the level of care they do they put for the players not just only at the level of the professional even at the level of the academies if you're sending your kid to a private school to train um private football school or any any private school and it's license the set of rules and regulations this school has to comply with as an academy or as a school is magnanimous you cannot imagine how much it is you need to have a safeguarding officer there you need to have U an ambulance for professional trainings you need to have an ambulance sometimes when you're running a tournament and if there is no ambulance there is no medical services then simply uh the game is not going to happen and sometimes the hosting team they lose points and they get I would say penalized for not making the ambulances available or for not U making the I would say having the right preparations for the game so the health care and the well-being of the players of the athletes all the way from the gr from the from the Grassroots all the way to the top of the professional level is is definitely a big part of the game and it's mandatory I'm going to take you back uh quickly into contracts again because and and again to football because that's a very interesting uh topic to me um we see a lot of players you know as you said 22 players for for for at least for for each team and you have 22 contracts and 22 completely different set of Articles and regulations yeah have you ever seen players complain and they have the right to complain that their peers have different conditions especially I'm saying this especially for the young players who are new into the game and they get kind of um I'm I'm not going to say cheated but they're going to be taken for a r let's put it in a nice way you know by not knowing their their rights or their potential so they get a very bad contract do they have any way out of of this or there is there any legal way that they can rely on or they might be locked for I don't know four or five years with a very bad contract uh me being uh representing the club I won't give the solution now I'll answer I'll answer you that and and again thanks a lot Ahmed for that question it's a very it's a very important very important question a player when he signs a contract like an employee as we said but with a specific nature even they use the term um of a special nature contract so it's an employment contract if you sign based on a certain terms and conditions then you are bound by those conditions unless some of the conditions or the conditions they are I would say um contradict with an applicable law or regulation so we sign I don't think which it's just only two but I mean you have the rooster open for you sometimes you can sign up to 30 players because again you sign professional players depends on the season so 25 30 depends on the squad room or the squad list you've got every season if a player signs on a contract and he comes with his peer same level and says okay but he's signing on that and I'm not signing on that again it depends on the terms and conditions and regulations I might be giving a player an advantage in his contract but I'm not giving it to his peer and I might be doing the same thing because again it depends the players um are part of the game they're stakeholders and the most important stakeholders of the game U because again they have to be paid I won't say fairly but because also you are bound by certain um I would say thresholds so there's something called the salary cap when it comes even to the local players here you have to comply with the salary cap certain number of players can pay that much certain number of players could pay that much and it's regulated and you have to make sure that this is happening it's not like you know you can move around it in a certain way or try to to to maneuver it in a certain way so but most of the clubs they've done something very I would say very smart uh they categorize the players into categories so you've got a player who's an international player and he's also featuring for more than 90% of the games every season he's an important player he's in a peak age so this is actually category a so internally they put their own regulations to make sure that there is a hedge or there is a cap there is a threshold a minimum and maximum and the players they start moving all the way up the leather from that category all the way up to the top category so this somehow creates the equilibrium between the players not not the perfect not the perfect equal system but it creates this kind of balance can a player legally walk out from the contract no unless there is a violation U because again some of the players in a in a certain way they tend to create the situation where the club is simply U to abuse in a certain way the Clauses of the contract to abuse the contract and the clubs as well do the same because again they are trying to break off a contract that seems to be in its nature unbreakable but at the same time um both parties need to really consider the merits and the Privileges been offered to each of them by the regulator under the FIFA regulations for example if you terminated a contract of a player prematurely for an unjust cause which is also equivalent to what we known in the what we know in the labor law as uh arbitral dismissal uh then definitely if the player done so for an unjust cause or the club then uh the party which is the damaged party or the other party not the non defaulting need to compensate the other maybe even up to the contract to the end of the contract or up to the full contract value so it's serious even when you get that example of uh Club trying to take a player for a ride and tell him you know what sign on that and then later we'll do it again the player he's deliverable to you under that contract as a performance so I would really consider it very carefully if I go to take a player and say look let's do a deal and let's you know make sure that he signed for that and I and I actually be a clever lawyer because the player is going to pay you back in bad performance you would pay the player less than what he let less than what he expected in a certain way or less than what he signed for I mean apart from being cheating the player or simply um violating his rights his contractual rights his personal rights U again you won't get the performance you cannot force a player one of the very to score and one of the very very important things that the people sometimes Miss if if you are if you're zenin zidan in the world cup and he didn't score that penalty against Italy people think that the Federation or even if he's doing this doing that with a team that the team can punish him not possible this is the only area unless he commits a misconduct but this is the only area in the football which is the players are totally privileged and protected and even no matter how the clubs or the coaches they try to put as much as they can of influence on the players that if you run if you don't score if you don't pass if you don't listen to the coach uh instructions from the outside we will penalize you it's a it's a it's a very risky area to go however technology came here to help them held them out so a player need to wear a GPS device he's a defender or he's a right winger or he's Striker you know what you've got a minimum number of kilometers you need to you need to you need to do every or minimum distance that you need to cover every game or every training your weight need to be perfect your uh simply your jump height I think in a certain way we know that you're you're doing 2 m if you're doing less then there is something wrong we take you to the clinic so it became also less abusive from both sides okay it's um it's a very it's a can can a player can a play can you mention in a contract that a player have to score a number of goals otherwise he will be in default no no that's not possible cuz it's a factor it depends on other factors but if the player comes to you and say look I need to play at least 50% of the games of the season to guarantee that and you agreed on it if he plays less than 50 you give him a reason to terminate the contract even for the club if the if the club asks the player and that's an important Clause a player cannot come and say I'm retiring from football today you know what I'm not going to continue because you can still put a clause in the contract despite that it it raised some controversial uh late I mean earlier during the days that a player you're against it's against his personal rights to force him to play but yeah it's a contract he has to respect it so you will find a lot of those gray areas where really lawyers and Scholars and people uh uh like you know who studied law or advising Sports law they just tap in they or simply they pluck themselves into that and they start doing the interpret ation and Court of arbitration for for sports the cast is I would say the most important Juris Prudence here if they rule in one case with a certain ruling then this becomes like when you do it with the court of cation it's it's like kind of the top level and it gets it's it could be hardly challenged yeah as a precedent um in in our audience we have a lot of uh uh legal students and a lot of fresh gr and a lot of people who starting their career and I'm pretty sure they would like to learn from you how would they become a sports lawyer how can they pursue this career if someone is interested thank you for the question it's it's Le we want the recipe it's it's actually um the thing is the the sports law like maybe few years back I won't say long time back but there was a very limited ways of getting access to the sports field and people even they feel that they're deared from going into the sport Sports field because they don't know the way should I apply to a club should I actually study law should I should I sit with footballers should I sit with agents they don't know the thing and the solution was found by academics first so since a long time back you've got lawyers who got themselves involved in sports because they love it and they learn it by practice so this is actually like kind of a segment and then the academics a lot of universities they launch their own programs which are specifically talking about sports um and they make it as a master's program specialized diplomas even sometimes it's a it's a it's a onewe course um to that extent and it it really gives a lot of uh access to information regulations and even to the network itself um you've got people you've got even universities that gives Bachelors now in sports management and in sports law FIFA themselves they have their own specialized program which is uh mainly in football law um the court of arbitration for sports they've launching their mod as well to to grasp a bigger number of talents and and of lawyers to get in there and study what is the regulation and how to apply it so you can have that also as a second segment the the most important segment is the practice I told you I started my my career with one transaction that came just I would say um didn't was not planned just came my way uh representing a like a legend or simply working with a legend like Diego arando Maradona rest in peace uh on one contract I also have done another contract with Fabio canavaro the the the World Cup winner with his Imaging rights I never knew what to put in that contract so the research is the key if I'm going to research the regulations if I read them and if I need to find templates somewhere if I need to meet up with people the network of the people working of sports is very open because again it used to be very limited nowadays it's it's you cannot imagine the number is unprecedent maybe in the UAE I'm still lucky so far that the network is is not that but definitely there are people I would say I'm one of the very recent lawyers who came into the sports law there are better lawyers and more advanced um I would say also more knowledgeable uh key lawyers in the region uh even in the uee here uh shout out to all my colleagues at the pro league and at the uee Football Association the clubs my colleagues at the club who I learned a lot from them I came to them as the most unexperienced sports lawyer and because of everyone's contribution I was able to make a little bit of progress um so definitely those three segments you can simply um start by working getting yourself involved in a sports facility or in a Sports organization not just only football any other sports that you like study and research and by the three factors combined you would definitely definitely when you present yourself or when you are present in a network which is a network involving a lot of sports organizations clubs players there's definitely an opportunity because the stakeholders in that in that process is the number is is is is humongous you will find every no one knows exactly till now no one can give you a figure how many football players professionally are registered so you can imagine if each one of those players need a loyer how many lawyers you would need and the clubs itself um so yeah definitely it's a it's very important and again um me being pleasured and honored to be part of imir legal Network this Niche Community with the prestigious lawyers I'm available to to to to help anyone with an advice if they need to ask any advice about it and again um I'm sure there would be many other more lawyers interested as well to help absolutely thank you so much you know usually I I end the conversation with most lawyers to ask them do you really love your job but for you I know I can see how much you're enjoying being the the the general Council of Al jazer Sports and cultural Club then I will ask you how much do you love your job yeah it's a it's a tricky question my job for me is is I would call it um it's my it became my second nature and and this is actually a little bit dangerous I wake up as a sports lawyer I sleep as a sports lawyer it's it's um you can't imagine you do like 8 10 eight or 10 good hours at office and you go back home and there the games have been featured for the champions league and you watching three four games and your favorite team is playing my team Al gazer they play every weekend so I'm there present to see them winning or losing or drawing and I know the consequences of each and every scenario um so there's a very little time for me to think about whether I like it or no but I think at a at a at to a big extent um the Sports World itself it it occupied me it stimulated me as a person and as a lawyer very exhaustive it's not um it's not that easy because it's still emotionally controlled but at the same time as a lawyer when you see or as any professional working in sports your work is simply get presented on TV every every weekend you're whatever you're doing and it and at the end maybe at the end of the season if your team is successful and they are able to uh make it to the Winner's Podium they win trophies or they win silverware you still know that you took part of that and if your team is not featuring well not performing well even if you have performed or you overperformed you know that when it comes to the group or when it comes to the collective U I would say Collective effort of everyone that the team is not winning so definitely my job is for me something uh very important I love it despite all the long hours that keeps me away from the family keeps me away from my uh lovely two kids and my great wife who's very important Backbone in my life and she's is the big key asset for me that made me at least continue in that career she was the first encourager to come and tell me look you like that continue in that and we will support you I like seeing the passion in your eyes every morning that makes you wake up without an alarm going to an office spending 10 or 11 hours with your K without your kids uh sitting behind the PC just to come back at home and feel that I'm doing what I like this is beautiful yeah this is beautiful amazing to know can you tell me a little bit about jazer uh uh Sports and cultural uh club and what is it like to work there by all means Al gazer Sports and Culture Club it's a it's a a Holding Group so the club itself it's a it's a sporting government I would say sporting organization uh licensed by the uh by the government by the ministry of sports formerly known as Ministry of Youth and sports um and it as I said it's a it's a holding group that owns under it number of subsidiaries the football team the other sports the investment the hotel so it's um different types of businesses working together but the ultimate purpose is to promote Sports and to promote well-being and health of the youth involving the community so it's mainly uh was founded originally to support and to to to support the community um I would say wellbeing and health Al gazer Club is a very unique model to be honest very unique U apart from a diff from a lot of clubs not just only in the UAE maybe in in a different region their benchmarks are completely quite different benchmarks are way much more higher when they compare themselves when they want to do something as a club um they really put themselves into the position of we want to be the best in that um and they look for the best they ask the best and they try to do it as we say in a in a very sustainable way the level of innovation been used the level of creativity and the chances the opportunities they Grant to each and every professional inside the club to simp work on himself and and help and support the club uh is something I would say after working with number of companies I've never saw it anywhere before the talent talent pool the the enthusiasm around it you don't see employees turning up to work on a Saturday or a mon Saturday or a Sunday or over the weekend just because the manager wants so and even if the manager is not there they're still going to go and do it because they love it the module and the project of Al Gaza is very unique to an extent um not cherished by us and not simply accredited by us by all of the other uh remarkable stakeholders around us that they are the best in class Al Gaza is one of the best in class they've won the licensing licensing uh Accolade number of years consecutively which is very hard uh when I told you about the licensing it's a set of rules it's a manual of like 200 and something two 200 and something Pages there of regulations that you have to comply with so when you become Best in Class 2 3 years it means that the backbone inside and the I would say the governance system and everything is is working perfectly um again the results do not really say say a lot about Al gazer how many trophies you've got because again the club is founded and the and even when it comes to the other sports uh they're founded to support the community however the club is working on a very um I would say unique modu to become self- sustainable to achieve the best that they can do uh benchmarking with top organizations around the world using the best resources um hiring top talents one of the good things that U it's it's kind of a success story I'm not going to mention the name but might be the person who might be watching that so we usually get interns to work with us so during the past 3 four years I've I've seen a student coming out from University he maybe studied a course or two above like in a sports and he's coming for three months or four months you cannot imagine the amount of access that this intern is enabled and the amount of deliverables he get we hired interns that I would say that they benefited more benefited us more than we did so he actually came from the outside taught us something and helped us to save money or even generate money and I have examples sound examples like them who came as an interns for three months they stayed for six months and then they found themselves with a permanent job and they are absolutely doing a stunning job stunning you won't find this in any in any I mean you won't find this a lot I would say in any other place Al Gaz gives this room for creativity I would take myself as an example hiring someone at that position as like you know as a senior lawyer without a Sports Experience but just with a like you know with an academic certificate is a risk and giving this person the access and deliver learning curve and the education pathway and as well as the empowerment is something it's it's it's unbelievable so I I I definitely I I would speak highly about a gazer not because they are employer but because of the uniqueness of that module and because of the strategy the way the people are thinking the way they resemble themselves the way they address their their qualities is is definitely something that I've not seen it anywhere and definitely because I I love the place I became a fan I told my boss one day I came to this club as an employee and I if if one day I will leave it I will leave it as a fan and I will leave it as a very very loyal fan um so yeah definitely shout out to Al gazer to my colleagues there to all the to all my team great people to be honest and as I told you I was a student with them uh despite the fact I was heading the team but I was the student with them the devoted one and they were always very helpful to support me to to get where I am so definitely it's a it's a great place to work for me and uh and inah it continues inshah thank you very much for coming and being with us Kim it's my pleasure ah thank you very much really enjoyed today uh likewise to be honest uh it's a pleasure it's a big pleasure to be with you and as I told you before I'm following your your steps since long time you know our relationship goes way way much more back so I saw everything you saw me when I was an associate I you you actually you interviewed me as a all one day as an associate so I definitely um I'm I'm definitely um highly looking at you you you've done something unprecedent here in the market Network and people and the level of experience the the you're very notable as a lawyer around the community of the lawyers and definitely it will continue I'm sure you will do a lot of great things thank you so much pleasure you very much for having me today it's actually a big pleasure and I'm I'm honored thank you this is your do from Monday legal see you next week