how many times you had a great conversation with one of your friends with one of your relatives maybe a brother or sister or a family member and you realize how smart they are how impressive they think and how inspiring their ideas are and then you decide let's ruin this relationship and become business partners partnership in business is one of the things that can get you to be friends if you're not or can break the relationships that you have already with friends and family you have to be very careful we invite one of the uh amazing smart lawyers that we know our guest for today again we invite Ammar ElBanna the managing partner of Incept Legal thank you very much Ammar for coming today thanks for having me what a great intro yeah it's it's all uh natural you know me I'm I'm I became huge in the media and everybody is saying that I'm natural and some of my friends are even telling me to stop lawyering does it pay well it doesn't pay anything you know actually that's very funny I tried a few times to get some sponsors especially for coffee and for uh uh cars and watches and so on and no one is uh responding you'll get there yeah I'm sure I'm sure you're building attraction congrats on the new studio brother thank you very much yes I I I cannot say the where did I buy them from but it's Ikea and Amazon well that's an investment good good choices yes yes well the the good thing is that I'm I'm pretty sure um I'll get somewhere at the end but uh what's really happening is that I'm enjoying doing this very much and really I don't care if it's paying or not as long as I'm still lawyering uh I'll keep doing it yeah yeah I like the diversity off of the different topics different people I think uh I think you you're very smart in picking up the right topics and different topics and there's always something for someone and I think if you keep doing that you you get the traction thank you very much that you that you need but such a great intro I got to tell you I loved how you articulated it and I think uh everyone watching us will be yeah that's interesting they relate yeah the question here my friend are we going to be lawyers about it or we going to be real about this discussion what do you think what do you prefer let's do this let's let's do both let's let's let's have the lawyer uh approach and talk about what people should take care of what people should think of and how they should um address the partnership when when it comes but then we talk about it as as people as well because I got into many Partnerships and I broke a few of them I broke a few relations as well that you know because honestly it shows a lot that you don't see seems that you know more than I do about I should be interfering you it's very Challen it must be very challenging for you because you obviously a sucessful lawyer and you interview a lot of people and sometimes I'm sure you interview someone on topic that you know sometimes more than your guest so it's challenging that you're a good listener so it's it's challenging to ask and listen while you actually know and just tame yourself from uh saying things that you might know more than your guest actually I say well some sometimes I I honestly I I invite only people I think they're much smarter than me most of the time in your case for example you're much much smarter than me I said it in the last episode I say it again I have my disagreement but but I'm I'm pretty sure I learned from everybody and um at least uh to to to I don't know the discussion is always uh something that you learn something new from it even if you know much more than the person who you're talking to at a certain level you find an angle that keep you thinking of uh of the topic in a different way nice and for this I will ask you what do you think of um Partnerships in general oh Partnerships is such a a beautiful word if you think about it seriously it's like partnership it's a beautiful po something the concept of it is just represent people and life together uh you can go to places and build things and have history and have memories and have meaning for life when you have Partnerships uh there's only little you can do on your own uh I can't think of uh at the moment I can't think of anyone who just was able to build something amazing only on his own you always have to have people that work with you support you and uh um enjoy the journey with you uh seriously I think it's it's more about that sometimes you think too highly of ourselves but partnership for me represent the the journey that you go the places you go with your friends and the time you spend with people around you and uh if you can have something meaningful in this time it's great yeah that's what I think that's why a lot of people put a word before partnership to Define it so sometimes they say life partner or business partner or I don't know whatever other way that just to Define what is what is uh what is what yeah you're right you're right the society seems to tends to develop poets dramatically no no let's let's go to the lawyering thing so the I'm talking about business Partnerships when we talk about that I I I I can give you an example a few two two of my friends uh few few weeks ago one of them approached me and said I'm getting into a new partnership Business Partnership and I would like that you advise me and coincidentally we realized that a business partner is also a friend of mine so it was funny it was nice and then I uh I I told both of them that uh it's good let's get in on on a call the three of us and uh discuss your uh new business uh idea and this partnership and both of them attended the call we had an amazing time 90 minutes talking we discussed many things about the partnership that they have I gave them an exercise I told them write down your ideas write down your ideas exchange it come up with the final one come to me I'll do your contract guess what happened they fell off not even they started the partnership without coming to me they didn't write the agreement wow yet I mean I'm pretty sure they will come at certain point but this is what happens when people like each other so much and at the beginning they trust each other so much they don't think that the partnership agreement is important I think I think you uh you said the word exercise and that was exciting I guess but I don't know if they have done it or not but it is I'm I'm pretty sure it's the on on the way you have to come back to me uh if you're listening or if you're watching uh it's it's just that I understand very well at the the beginning of every idea people are too excited they don't think of every um scenario that they might um disagree later on they think that the disagreement is so unlikely to happen we're friends we're family we are so aligned there is no competition I don't think a conflict can happen I I think there'll be unlimited examples of what uh what what can they say to delay or not to do the partnership agreement in general oh I love the example you start with let's take that example and dive deep up it what do you think happened in that uh partnership what did you do what in a hindsight what do you think happened why did these two end up and just they went together and have a partnership without the agreement what do you think happened on a iCal side of things the Euphoria the the excitement of uh love and peace and happiness and which are these things fall under emotions emotions yes exactly emotions it's it's it's it's unbelievably there you see it in every transaction in every court case and every client we meet I don't care how big you are how International you are even if a couple of friends or two Titans in the market there's always emotions involved and you know what the word emotion came from it's actually a Latin word Emoto and if you break it down it's fascinating it's a reflection of what you actually did to these gentlemen it's the word e which is energy and motions so you have created an energy my friend now what happened yeah the exercise they've done the I was I got excited when you thought that's exciting what exercise I want to see that exercise share it with me you created an energy inside of me and you did the same to them as well there was an energy ah we're going to play there something we're going to build together so you started an energy into between these two gentlemen and then the motion came into place they're Ladies by the way oh sorry what a what a mayor brain I'm sorry my bad uh yeah so so I think I think this is this is I think the if I'm being honest we can talk about the we'll talk about the legality of it the importance of a contract we'll deal with all of these things but I I'll I'll I'll be driven by you and that one I'll try to to to t my excitement on my emotions in this interview uh but yeah I think I think you you you you give a a real example of uh how emotions can drive the whole the whole thing and that's okay by the way sometimes we run away from these emotions uh because you have to be this businessman who thinks with his logic and be pragmatic and all of these things but the idea is everyone is emotional and are you in touch with these and do you can you can you actually give them the time and the space and then can you then go back to your brain and and and function and have a right balance and being in tuned with what your brain tells you what your emotions tell you I promise if you don't something going to happen down the line and I've seen Partnerships so started very well very logical broke after 5 10 15 years because there were emotions involved that was never expressed I've seen other cases that it was only emotions that were involved excitement happiness Foria you mentioned but there wasn't really something to to not to tame but to align those emotions together you can actually build something so um yeah I think uh it's a good start uh to think about your emotions and what motive actually why are you going to this partnership well I I totally agree with you but let's put it this way is it possible to put the emotions aside and be very pragmatic about every partnership and go draft a contract and uh do the exercise in a pragmatic way so that we don't do mistakes how can we control these emotions in in in in the right way so that we don't do the mistake I asked AI before I come here today Chad gbt tell me I said I'm giving a podcast today I'm talking about this topic what ideas can you help me with and went straight and told me all the pragmatic things due diligence do this do that a contract a framework agreement uh align on the strategy the market splitting on the U responsibilities all the things that you see in books and I said come much HGB I know all of this I don't can you be more human I said and and I challenged it went and actually Dove deep to the to the to the core issues so to answer your question can we um set aside the emotions or ignore the emotions or control the emotions I don't think this is the right approach and this is one of these topic that you have different opinions and different people um I'm a very emotional person and I I I learned and I spent my 20s and early 30s suppressing those emotions and I want to be this lawyer who always go to the brain and and navigate and advise on these big cases and mitigation and and solve problems right can be seen emotionally and actually magic happened when I start to actually be in touch with my emotions and connect with people connect with other side and able to actually resolve disputes and understand that disputes actually arises from emotions that people have so to answer your question uh from my personal perspective uh and like I said you have different perspectives in this topic I'm very comfortable saying I don't think this would be the right approach at least for me uh and even from what I'm seen what I've seen in my experience I think you need to understand your emotions because emotions are driving you like I said this energy emotions you move and if you understand that you'll be happy on your own skin and you'll be comfortable with you'll be able to identify who you are what other the values you want to do from this partnership what really drives you and then once you reach to that stage in my opinion you'll be able to with someone else who had the same values have the same emotions right and if you can do that and then we'll talk about the technicalities with different set of skills different responsibilities I think magic can happen but if you completely ignore it and you only go to the logic you can build something amazing it can be very successful um you can make a lot of money I I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to it but in my opinion um if you want to build something that stays and leaves a Le leaves a legacy behind and really have an impact on the people you need to have this emotional connection together with your brain when you go into partnership let's say two partners business partners are emotionally connected and each of them connected to himself and they understand what they want from the other party um but they don't have the agreement in place what do you think of this um of of of of this scenario for example because my experience which happened a few times uh that I've seen that when people are so much aligned with their um let's um let's put it this way with what they expect from the other party so everything everybody is of course the flexibility exists and so on but they have certain expectations from the other party and um these expectations sometimes are even repeated in meetings when they talk that you're going to handle that part I'm going to handle that part but then the definition and what that part means is it strategy or execution or management or or or the people don't really talk the same language and sometimes I feel writing them down uh reduce that risk and um and and I I don't know what's your take on that you don't need to go to law school and study law to understand that you need to have an agreement in writing yeah uh that regulates the relationship between two or three or four Partners or any number of Partners uh goes without saying so it's it's obvious you need to entertain a discussion a negotiation and then you need to understand uh who's doing what what is the scope of the partnership whatever you guys agree on again I'm talking to these ladies yeah um um I'm 100% sure you'll you'll look back in time and so thanks God we wrote this agreement because actually it's there in writing it's reference something we can go back and have a look at and maybe we have a disagreement and I oh actually we did agree on these things so not it's it's 100% important to have an agreement but you know what it sounds very obvious how many times you come across a situation partnership with know agreements oh many many and let me thinking why do why why don't we have agreements is something super basic and I thought about it deeply and I think we as human historically we didn't need agreements because we lived in small societies and people knew each other and handshake is an agreements and normally you would have this in a magj settings or a sitting or a family settings or friend settings and then there'll be people witnessing the agreement right and and therefore naturally I think we have a that we trust each other uh and I think that's why we don't have an agreement and but I think in reality even if you think you have met uh your dream partner sit down and have an agreement yes put it down in writing exactly yes have you seen many conflicts that goes to court and there's no agreement and everybody's relying on scattered pieces of WhatsApp messages and emails and I don't know handwritten note that both of them initialed and stuff like this oh yeah oh yeah I uh he broke my heart we just we were actually in the court recently um in a partnership dispute was guess how much the value was 120 million DS wow and there was no one agreement it was an uphill battle and we managed to get something but not all of it because it was we were able to establish the partnership right which was in itself just very difficult to do we didn't have even any sort of Witnesses on this handshake agreement but the practicality of the agreement unfolded but the terms of the agreement wasn't there so I was able to establish the relationship I was able to establish some of the entitlements but the Jey part of the claim unfortunately wasn't there and something I advised my client on from day one this case is going to come down to evidence whilst our chances was very very low we were able to get something but we didn't achieve what was right and that was because there wasn't an agreement that actually specify exactly what are the terms of these uh partnership uh transactions that you guys agreed on what happens in that scenario collection of money cost expenses all these were scattered not even by emails Believe It or Not were scattered in practice because what happen in practice is we tend to change and that's okay so one of the things we look at in the court is that the the practicality of the execution of the agreement and you think okay that will give you some consistency but we're not robots in one year we we'll behave in a certain way we'll have our dealings in a certain way a year later we can change that Behavior so even following the behavior to understand the relationship was very challenging uh so yeah it was it was it was sad to see to be honest because we did everything we could and it came down to some technicalities that we were not able to establish there was no chance to mediate for example in the beginning or oh this is uh that's something I'd love to speak about with my good friend Christine yes she's uh we we chatted about mediation and her and might have some interesting ideas about it as much as I loved for this to happen in that case it takes two yes takes two to tango uh we tried but the other side was the other side knew he he he he had us and he he didn't want to have a discussion uh we tried in in various ways but like I said it takes to what do you think of the partnership The Business Partnership that happens between life Partners H I think this this is a more important topic to talk about no because this is one of the things that I see a lot especially in um in in in this uh in this region and actually no not not just in this region I see it everywhere you see you see a husband and wife as as business partners or brothers who are business partners or you see a father who um decided to put all his um uh children for example as as partners uh during his lifetime just to uh to to avoid uh any discrepancy or any conflicts between them H after death or with the inheritance and then when it happens anyway brothers and sisters and cousins and and and become uh Partners so this close family ties with business I'm sure you'd agree with me we've seen family businesses that skyrocketed and other just broke and there are the famous examples yes that you and I are fully aware of um I'll take it I can't form a hard views on it to be honest with you I can't I mean the easy answer for me to tell you no don't do it segregate the personal relationship from the business relationship but I'm not a robot I'm a human and the reality of the matter is again according to to my belief and my subjectivity of the world because it's very subjective how we look at these things um is I think if you build a relationship with your sibling with your parent with your wife with your kids with your nephews and nieces not because of the family bond but because of the things we talked about and the things we are going to talk about the shared values the the share Visions the the the the the the the different set of skills that you guys can build together I think this is going to be the most beautiful thing you can ever have because the reality is the bond is there with with siblings and family so if you are able to look at it to a degree from a business point of view and acknowledge that the the emotional connection that I have with my brother is is is a blood emotional connection because he's my brother she's my sister I feel toward them certain way that doesn't make them a good a good a good partnership a good business partner yeah so and it's not easy it's not easy to do this this you need to be very emotionally intelligent to be able to identify that the love and this connection that I have with my brother when I spend time with him it's only stays in the family because he's my brother in other case but he cannot be my business part yeah in other cases you can have a brother same mother mom and dad but you guys also share values and visions that can be implemented in the business and each one of you have different set of skills that can complement each other right and if that's the case it's going to be amazing you still have to go through the legality of it the regulations of it put put everything in writing but I think if you can if you're lucky enough to be blessed with this opportunity I I wouldn't be against it but you you you'll hear most people tell you don't go into partnership with your friends don't go into partnership with your with your family members but the reality is if you can apply what we just discussed right now I think it's going to be something uh enjoyable for you for for for all of you the closer the family members or the closer the business partners are to each other uh the need for a foundation or a business partnership agreement or for a very defined protocol is more so if there's husband and wife doing business together oh my God they have to decide every single element of every possibility and their Business Partnership and everything have to be defined if the brother and sister the same if they cousins I think even more because as long as the family ties are close we're human as you said so the friction and the conflict uh frequency will automatically be higher even if the values are aligned even if the the the the the mission and vision are are the same but we're human beings we meet every day it's impossible that I like you every day there'll be days that I don't want to see you or there'll be days that you do something that annoys me and if everything is clear and written down we really reduce the risk of having a conflict uh very much I couldn't agree more we're talking about a scenario when there's an exit I think it's inevitable maybe it's maybe it's too emotional to say it's inevitable that each partnership that has an exit will be some emotion involved to it I I think to a degree it's inevitable if you're talking about an individual level um so whether family or not in any exit it's emotional because we we shared ISS we shared dreams we traveled together we had hopes we had back and forth we had tough times and we went through it together we celebrate success we felt sad when we didn't get the project we wanted to get right so after all of that you you you have this emotional connection and in any exit scenario there's always a potential that you might lose the other side on a personal level and I think this is the point you're referring to yeah are you you willing to take a risk of losing a family member ideally we don't want to lose our partners on a personal level but the reality of things that because we're human we might change and this might bring bring an end to the partnership and the personal relationship so you're right and I think the risk is always there uh it's it's in my opinion inevitable and um having an agreement or not in my opinion w't so that problem because even if you have an agreement that we agreed on 15 years ago guess what in those 15 years changed a lot Partners have changed a lot yeah the business has grew and maybe or maybe not we did update the contract to reflect what's going on by the way it's a very good idea to keep in check your contract because what happens is you need to get it updated I was speaking to one of the equity partners and one of the international law firms recently and he was explaining to me how's the equity structure going on and how they develop and I was impressed with the amount of work these guys do on a regular basis to keep in check what's happening and and there's a committee that does these kind of uh um meetings and understand what's going on and reflect the new uh agreement let's say or protocol like said or uh the code if you may um to to capture how the business is actually behaving right uh so I would highly advise that you do that on a regular basis when I say regular I mean regular as the business needs right um but but but ultimately the emotions of the separation is going to be there uh um and you're right with the family members um the risk is there and I think when you go into partnership you need to always be aware and your partner needs to be aware that uh the exit is always an option yes we're here to celebrate uh something amazing and we want to think of let's go and rock the world and do amazing things and make a great impact but we also mature enough to understand it may also end and in my opinion this is part of life and it it can take you back to the how mature you are and so on and if you have an agreement that resol and resolve this kind of potential conflict it's going to be a great tool to rely on in case of exit yes yeah a few of my clients came to me and said that at the beginning of the relationship they were shy to ask the other party who is a very close friend or a very dear business partner uh for many years to write down every single term and they were they felt like if I propose an agreement or I propose uh writing a contract I will give a sign of uh that I that I don't trust the other party and this is of course might be the start of breaking the trust or breaking the relationship so many of them say okay I shake hands that's the agreement let's go ahead and try one or two deals and of course afterwards something bad happens what can you advise the partners who are shy to put terms in writing I have a very personal approach to this okay uh I sit down with my clients and I really understand what's going on because a person who is running a business thinking like that there's something else is pushing him to think like that he knows it I need to have an agreement he doesn't actually need you to have he knows it but there something on an emotional level is driving him either fear of losing this uh deal or he's insecure he thinks that the other side might that I don't trust them so in my opinion I spend I think my Approach other other lawyers will have different approaches I'm sure is that I spend time with my client and give him I hold the space for my clients to tell me what's going on and that often initiate a discussion and then I hear things and I can see the person in front of me and by then I'm able to actually give him solutions that can comfort him and put him in a space that he's able to think without this fogginess and these these thoughts that actually comes from emotions if I be honest with you so the way I would do it is that to to to give this kind the space the safe space to understand what's uh uh making them think like that and then from there I tend to solve the problem because once you solve the root or at least try to understand the root of the cause of this Behavior the client will most likely come along with you said yeah let's let's do it this way okay how do you propose that we tackle it right um and and yeah it's a difficult discussion yes sometimes to have uh and if I'm honest enough with my clients I would be understanding why they think this way and most likely they would have a red flag inside of them if I'm being completely honest I think sometimes lores can be good psychiatrist by the way if you understand why they think this way if you dig deep he might be having some red flags and fears toward going into partnership with this person yeah I mean should shouldn't it shouldn't raise shouldn't be an issue right logically it should be okay to have an agreement absolutely and I think it's also a good way to address this issue is that writing an agreement is not about the other party being uh uh not trustworthy or whatever you're also obliging yourself so no one should be shy to propose having an agreement because it is it it it creates obligations and liabilities and uh tasks or or Clarity for both parties not just for one so people should not be shying out of proposing writing agreements with the with with their spouses with their family members with the parents whatever I mean if a deal is a deal and if you're into business you have to understand to do business like Behavior we personally I'm going to share something with you um I've recently entered into a transaction with a friend of mine who uh lives in the UK and he is the most easygoing person I can trust him with my life it's a personal thing to me and what I did um is that I I I bought him for a lawyer in the UK and I actually drafted the agreement and I sent him with the agreement to the lawyer to understand what I written and to be comfortable and I told them this is my proposal this is this draft represent what I think we agreed on but please have a read take your time on it and sleep on it and get back to me with you so he did come back with some and when I gave him that space he came back with some of the fears he had which was amazing to actually deal with to see and he was able to to articulate them and vocal be vocalized about them and and we have some new terms that we had into the agreement so if there's if you're shy away of speaking to your future partner about putting things in writing I I would say first ask why do you have this shyness why do you have this fear if you have a good answer then there's always a solution to um to to navigate around your partner thinking that you're not trusting him I promise you he's not he he's a businessman he knows how things are done he's not going to be surprised if you tell him let's put it in right I'll I'll I'll go into an extreme scenario not an extreme scenario is actually very common but just building on what we are discuss say we have two business partners who are friends they trust each other but they are smart and business uh mentalities they drafted an agreement one of them is not like what one of them doesn't like the agreement after 10 years people change as he said and he wants to change the terms and the agreement is a bit too tight what would you advise that person to do in order to legally of course we have to read the agreement you know but I'm I'm talking high level uh what would you advise this person to do when they want to approach an amendment or a change in this agreement and the agreement is too tight to change I would again understand what's the motive behind and I'll start to look at commercial um I I will understand the commerciality of the relationship really and understand why is he coming from and what actually has changed and will start to engage in commercial discussion if if it does make sense it's not a bad idea to start discussion with your partners about what you thought and how things are changing and think and that's why agreements need to be reflection of what we agreed on and this ongoing discussion uh because for the partnership to continue to grow both partn need to feel heard listened to acknowledged and both can go home feeling I'm benefiting from this partnership on a moral level on a financial level so if you have an agreement that you don't like just because you don't like I don't think this is a good idea you see this is one of the very important things if you're a law student if you're a fresh grad if you're a a junior lawyer or if you're a businessman you have to understand very well these facts your business lawyer cannot be the lawyer who's always on your side or taking your opinion at heart and just do whatever you like he will stop you sometimes and tell you why do you want to do that does this benefit you is this commercially smart why do you want to do this change so whenever you see your lawyer arguing with you you have to listen and you have to understand that it's not always about you and about your wishes and about what you want or what you like and what what you don't like sometimes we as consultants we as lawyers will advise you to not do what you want because you're going to be hurting yourself and we are there to advise you we're taking your side but we're not going to be always agreeing with you 100% yeah I I totally agree just thinking about changing the agreement because I want to no no but the reality of things are like if there's something to stand on can the reality is you need to have this ongoing discussion because things do change like you said but if you want to change it because h no sorry it's not gonna work how many times did you hear the word red flags all the time all the time one of the words that has been abused by the society yes what are the business red flags that you would see in any partnership yeah again very subjetive everyone of us would have his own uh Red Flags uh in my book the Red Flags uh are the things that you know you won't be able to navigate your way through right going into partnership requires knowing that you're going to partner with someone who's different than you he has a different lens he sees the world through he came a long way not your way have different belief system different background different parents and so on so differences within those parameters must you you must have the SK to be able to deal with them so whatever we can agree or disagree upon on these things I'm not not red flag for me the ref flx for me on a business level um is someone that you cannot trust someone who's not trustworthy someone those reputation uh is is is not that clean in the market you know um someone who's very insecure for me is a red flag um um if I can't trust you I can be in business with you right um I've seen this many times the one that I've seen a lot actually and for me it now became a massive red flag it wasn't in the past is the insecurities you see in people and I always try to be okay with that people who are have insecurities because I have my own insecurities as well you do I assume every one of us has and I always thought that's fine it's insecurity we work it out but there are some insecurities that it's not your problem to S and you can't navigate the relationship with these type of insecurities people who always need like to be in control or want to uh have affirmation about themselves all the time uh or uh just insecure because uh they look at you with your stff skills which is different than the St of skills and for some reason or another your skills are more attractive to the market and that for a reason causes them to be insecure about you for me this is a red flag it could be business could be not uh but this is a red flag on on on a characteristic on a characteristic level uh because people who are insecure in business you cannot do a business with um always put stops to ideas you want to have uh they will think about their insecurity all the time not the business itself and and sometimes it could be it could be difficult to identify because they will never tell you they are insecure even if you try to address the issue in hand as a partner and talk about it sometimes the words can get out because of the insecurity in there um and therefore it could never get resolved um so I would say trust uh insecurities um are my main my main issues if I can trust you and then uh I think you and I aligning on a on a on a on a on a on a vision and um um on a vision level and then next to the other business thing that we will talk about in a partnership I think apart from that you can make a way through but if I don't trust you um I don't think goes again it's the concept of partnership yeah right yeah um I would say so yeah what about you actually very keen to hear about uh your views on on red flags I I I think in um one of the biggest red flags for me is fairness where if I if I see someone uh um accepting an interest where that that is beyond being fair uh uh I that's that's a huge red flag for me so I'll take them out for dinner and and uh and see how they treat the the people who are less privileged for whatever reason a valet guy or a a waiter or or someone who's who who's in the service industry that's a huge red flag for me if if they take so much time ordering while someone is standing next to them and uh and and giving them a hard time that's that's for me a huge red flag so to be fair is is very important because uh if they're Fair even with the smallest thing they will be fair with the big ones and if they are fair with the random person they will be fair with a close person but if they are not I can expect that this unfairness to touch me later on and the second thing with uh with with how they treat the uh the the service industry in general because this reflects a lot the insecurity that you spoke about and if they want to show up of strength or power or control for me that's uh that's something that I don't like and I think it's even if it works for a lot of people it doesn't work in in partnership with me for example so that's one of the things that I I can't deal with so um yeah you see it's very personal the more we talk about it it's very subject very personal in terms of how you feel toward the other person yeah interesting um no one can disagree with you and I think if we invite more people we have different views on I 100% And I think mostly we will agree on all these points because we will relate to uh different situations yes but let's go to the positive note what are the characteristics of the good partner so let's say you have aligned on the vision you have aligned on the values you think you guys can work together so you sort out this side which I think is the foundation of the partnership we've got this sorted okay it's not enough if you really like each other that much become best friends have a bromance yeah go propose to her if you if you're in love with her yeah he's your brother he's always going to be your brother so this part that I spent a lot of time talking about is is for me fundamental Foundation to the whole thing but is not enough is not enough you still have to do the work behind it you it has to make sense from a from a scientific point of view and this is all science it's written there's many books about it but in my experience uh I think you need to have uh uh different set of skills that you guys supplement each other partnership who strives often comprises of people who supplement each other and can have set of skills that supplement each as partnership again from the world um I can do something I'm good at you can do something you're very good at I don't have this skill you don't have the skill I can go and learn it you can go and learn it but you know what I'm going to trust you because you're fair and trustworthy to do this part I'll do this part and these two efforts will go down in one part which is the partnership so for me this is a fundamental thing to work uh for the partnership to work because you but because of this you'll always be able to see I to ey and you always compete but not compete you need to have this partnership you you need to have someone who Who ah this guy got this deal what can I do but he's not really competing with you because he does this in in in his field yeah and you do this in your field so you're competing but not competing if you know what I mean yeah a kind of a healthy competition because a lot of people call it this way even within yourself you have these thoughts like right and left up and down and then you keep until you find the sweet spot right and you balance it right right it's like when you go on have you done C surfing before no like there's so many thing you want to think about okay I want to get the wind right I want to get the board right and it sounds very challenging when you do it but once you get it up okay you align and you're able okay now I know so it's it's this process is very interesting and you can do it with your partner as well so you need to have two different set of skills or a number of different skills that supplement each other um I think you also have to have um a very defined roles in terms of who's doing what um I think this is very important uh I think you need to have emotional resilience I would say um to be able to allow a space that you you and your partner can discuss things in across rooms that we can be vulnerable with each other this is an important characteristic uh to be genuinely vulnerable to listen to your partner uh because as long as you you have your eyes on the partnership and your partner there's always going to be something to to develop and build my opinion two things uh I think also are important and and is that managing through conflict this is inevitable you can't go into a partnership thinking oh it's going to be walk in the park no it's going to be Sundays walk in the park it's sunny beautiful it's an amazing way holding hand with singing with dancing other days we may have different opinions different feelings different whatever that might result in Conflict you need to know that your partner has the characteristic to be able to navigate through this conflict and last thing I would say go and have fun and celebrate your Milestone with your partner this builds in a connection and take the time and the space and celebrate it don't keep running running running all the time reflect and say what we've done this that worth celebrating take your partner out and just go and enjoy uh the celebration you have you have done I think these for me are are important I want to ask you a technical question about signing the agreements would you would it make a difference if it's uh signed electronically or would you prefer or the courts prefer more ink signed agreement no the Dubai court now and the UAE courts in general have adopted uh um actual signature and and E signature so that shouldn't constitute a problem whatsoever some entities ask me to sign every paper on every uh agreement and they even want to have the front and the back and they want to have the stamp on every page this is painful that normally comes with a request of a blank check you have to sign as well yes so really why are the banks and the financial institutions still are asking for these Stone Age practices these are traditional Industries and they are led by Massive organizations the the hierarchy in it is is is unbelievable so doing A Change Would brings a lot of responsibilities if things go wrong and the bigger the organization is the difficult you can make a change um imagine the Titanics for a massive ship they saw thew in front of them they couldn't avoided it because by the time you need to make a movement in such a massive ship it just takes time so I my assessment would be because of that but if you're using a jet ski you can easily actually maneuver have freedom but believe it or not even when you're in jet ski and you're running on an high speed if you turn suddenly what happens to you you're off right so so making my my in my opinion I would say making a change is is not easy particularly for big organization uh they are skeptical about it people who give approval they know they're going to have they're going to lose some sleep over it if things go wrong they are under board investigation so did you rather play The Safe Way the the the thing is that these practices as long as they are staying some business people tend to copy because they feel like if the bank is doing that then this is the only way that is correct so I'm going to ask everybody to send all my suppliers all my customers to stamp and sign every single page of the agreement yeah yeah and not to take a doy sign or yeah but things are changing I I I I hear you and I always see that but I think things are changing with with seeing the younger generation taking over uh and and these guys bring their own thinking to it they really ask you smart questions and why why we doing this and most often we don't have answers to these questions I think by the next I would say few years you'll see these practices less and less disappearing simply because the people are Empower is going to change and this change you bring in new mentalities and slowly slowly you'll see a change and uh but are you sure business people are actually asking for it really depends yes i' I've seen I've seen some some I don't know suppliers to my firm for example when they they sign a a contract with us they say we don't want to take a docy sign we want an ink signed agreement and we want it front and back and we want it stamped on every page and we just do it because they're happy and you're speaking with the media with mid level management or the top management I'm not the even the one speaking so someone will be if you then if you want when want to change it speak to the CEO of it or the manager I think if you break it down to him or her he or she would be like I know I don't know why we doing this makes sense yes sometimes we don't want to do the change things are working let let them I don't want to change do yeah exactly at the end do you want to give uh us an advice or do you want to change one law in in the UAE or do you want to um suggest a new law come up with something uh Innovative to suggest in this market especially about this topic of partnership okay I'm glad you didn't ask me genely because I had some Secrets the market gonna see very soon watch the space I have some interesting ideas okay we're working on in our firm I'm working with brilliant smart uh young ladies and and gentlemen and we have some interesting idea uh ideas that we working on so I'll keep that aside I'm glad you didn't ask me more than that very good on this topic um not really I think I think we have enough laws uh when it comes to Partnerships to be honest the the corporate law changed a number of years a number of times in the last five years yeah several changes we've seen a lot of openness for uh foreign Capital we've seen a lot of uh Freedom coming to uh the nomination arrangement we need we used to see historically um foreign Equity now can come in and invest directly on on onshore land Mainland and specific uh type of businesses so I think I think from a legislation point of view uh we're doing very well um there's there's a lot of uh development on the crypto side of things we've seen a lot of transactions now uh dividends being paid in crypto yeah bonuses on employment level getting paid in crypto uh salaries being paid in cryos we've seen a recently judgment from the Dubai Court technology crypto payments so I I think in terms of uh the regulation I think the uee has done an outstanding job in the last six years I would say five years at least yeah I think you and I can have 10 episodes to only set out the new legislations that the Dubai the Dubai government and the UA government yeah have introduced and enacted just to develop the market so I think no I think we're doing well from a UA point of view we're good uh we don't need more laws very good thank you very much for not suggesting any new laws because we we are still uh getting used to the the new ones that we have yes and thank you very much for coming to Monday legal thanks pleasure ah thanks a lot pleasure well this is your dose from Monday legal see you next week