[Music] the problem in this regard is that I see a lot of I a lot of challenges when it comes to my name is Ahmed Elnaggar and this is Monday Legal good morning my guest for today is uh Mohamed Khodeir he's a managing partner of Khodeir and partners and he is the former CEO of the general authority of investment and free zones in Egypt good morning Muhammad and thank you so much for coming thank you Ahmed for hosing me it's a it's a great pleasure to have you uh finally and I know you're traveling a lot and you're a very busy schedule uh and it's such a pleasure to have you and I know you're expanding right now into the UAE and it's and also to Saudi withan Partners lately and I'm I'm very happy to uh to find the time to to be with us no it's an honor and I follow the jurist with passion so I'm very honored to be on board today speaking of challenges I uh I don't know if you agree with me or not but I think the Egyptian economy right now is facing a lot of challenges and this one of the jurisdictions you worked uh in right now withan partners and you did work for the government and you did work for private practice before um but at the same time there are a lot of opportunities because I see a lot of Investments going from countries like Egypt into Saudi and Egypt into the UAE and a lot of uh investments from the UA Saudi Qatar and all of these countries going to Egypt as well what is the what what's the what's the economy atmosphere what's happening in Egypt you see Egypt's economy challenge continues to be the deficit the deficit coming from uh exporting much less than what we're importing so that needs a focus in simple terms on capacity building in the production ability of the country whether for exports or uh replacing Imports and to do that there are things that are in the countries and the government's control and things that are not in their control like Wars like challenges like all the turmoil and that's a difficult situation for any country and the whole world is suffering economically from these but there are things that are in the government control that I think needs a a a dynamic change which is the negative bureaucracy this has come throughout the different systems in Egypt and built up more complexities and more complexities so to diss these layers of complexities you need a complete revolutionary reform in the way the bureaucracy thinks in its culture and its Dynamics and this needs to be done through pilot steps over time that is what we can do at the government level and I think the government has taken steps towards that but I think we need much more but on the good side of that is with these challenges there are opportunities and you've seen a lot of UAE Saudi Investments coming into the country and looking for experts who can help them serve through these challenges who know how to deal with the bureaucratic challenges who know how to get enforceable Solutions so that creates a lot of opportunities for law firms as as a very uh senior partner managing partner and founder in your firm and so on I always ask this question are you still doing technical work with your own hand and your own time alongside with all the management uh of people and managing of the Affairs of the firm itself to be honest uh I try to pretend that I'm not because that's my wishful thinking I'd like to think that I'm not no longer doing technical work and I'm focusing on playing golf with the clients and Landing the work but unfortunately it's an unavoidable situation that sometimes clients require your technical input on certain things and certain matters and uh to allow the team to acquire more experience uh you do get involved it's not ideal because I believe a leader of an organization whatever they may be doing and I think that's a big big dogma and challenge in law firms is law firms direct uh managing partners and managers of units not just managing Partners heads of departments you need to make sure that your team is billing x amount 7 hours a day H and that's your main job and you need to land work enough for that team and you need to land the quality that the firm wants on that team and then uh some firms will expect that lawyer to also build that's an A A A an illusionary impossibility that leads to in my view a lot of challenges and possible corruption because if you do not have a proper vision of what you do and what you're expecting to do then uh the result will always be uh to serve the kpis that you need to deliver so it's something that a lot of firms and I think maybe in the IBA and conferences that we have this is a topic we that is always hit upon because if you want the managers to focus on what they should be focusing on they shouldn't be doing billable work but it's as I say this is what I tell you but I end up myself doing some billable work but I try to make sure that I do not dig so deep into it because that's the danger because if the head of the operation is doing the technical work so H so in indulged in details and you get trapped in these details then the whole spectrum of other things you have to handle is in danger and that's the more important thing because no one else will do that so it's a big challenge we have on a daily basis but unfortunately yes I do still H I'm trying to work on not reaching the point where I do much less of that and that would be the optimal point for any organization where its head is doing all almost zero bable work and but just being involved in making sure that the whole I I always compare it with the uh rowing you know with rowing there's the person who's on the head of the boat guiding guiding everyone how the tempo is correct that's a very nice answer from you I want to take you back to the technical part to ask for your advice as a managing partner of a firm um and as a former government uh official if I'm a big investment um uh body in in in the Europe for example and I'm going uh to advise or I'm going to need your advice in order to acquire some Assets in a jurisdiction like in in Egypt or in the UAE what are the main things that I would like to look at when I'm choosing my The Firm that is going to help me uh with this acquisition well h i uh most clients are looking at Cost control so cost control is a very important component by default if we ignore that and pretend it's not there then we're not pragmatic enough clients are looking for quality and the right level of quality when and the right time requires for that quality that you're asking so clients sometimes have unrealistic expectations your role as a law firm is to set these expectations to a realistic approach so if you're asking for a document in 3 hours don't expect to get the quality of 20 hours you need to know that so the law firm has to be realistic and prioritize its tools and resources in the right way with the right level of attention noting what you're offering and where you're offering it and how you're offering it so you need a firm that knows all these SPS so it can give you the right service at the right time and this is a very important component because I could keep doing an advice for 10 days so I'll get a quality level of course there's a diminishing part when you spend so much time on an advice starts to diminish and you start getting confused but you can 10 days is not equal to two days but the client needs it in two days so how in two days you can get 10 10 days Dr down or get the company the job done they want the company set up they want without compromising on on key components of quality so you have to know what are the key components of quality versus what are the focal points but some lawyers like to pretend that we can always provide that 100% quality in 24 hours that's not human and it's not going to happen you have to be realistic and tell clients the timeline that is required to give them the quality that they're seeking and that you're known for if you're not able to meet that timeline then you need to put a lot of disclaimers that this review is focus on 1 two 3 and not an exhaustive review uh if it's a document if it's a process and so forth so there is a time and effort that is required to produce the 99% quality that we pursue and and that time has to be exhausted if you don't have that time you will not be able to deliver that quality so working on realistic client expectations understanding their scope offering uh deep rooted research knowledge about the different topics depending on their sensitivity offering the fast required advice or delivery when it's needed because that's what the client is asking if you fail to do that you failed to deliver what the client is asking from you and you will have a default so if the client wants to set up a company quickly you have to set it up quickly there is a cost for that that you have to take or don't offer services of setting up companies quickly right so you need to know what are you offering when are you offering it what the client really needs and confirm with them what they need and offer it in a very uh H H smooth and focused fashion in a world of AI and Speedy movement in every direction realizing that that not every uh day you will have the chance to spend 60 hours on the advice you want to give from a cost perspective and from so the challenge is how you can provide the quality that is closest to the 60 hours in six so firms are all of them working on using Ai and using resources to be able to do as much as possible to that noting that we're humans and not H super uh Power people that will Pro produce that Perfection all the time we're still humans um what what's your opinion on this trend because I see there's a a trend in in um in hiring lawyers from Juris from from outside jurisdiction so I'll give you an example in the UAE for example and in Kuwait and in Saudi they are hiring lawyers in Egypt and in Lebanon who studied their markets but reside in their countries and they deliver Services uh abroad um how did it see this affecting the the the the legal industry in general it's part of cost control tactics so uh you know and I mean this from the quality perspective of course cost is is one Element but the quality as well well it requires a lot of uh uh structured management it is doable because you know uh most GCC states have based the laws on the code cine system which is from Egypt Arab from France the Napoleonic civil code so accordingly the laws and regulations started off as being very similar yeah now it's completely different and evolved in different jurisdictions there are common features so the law of contracts which is based on the code Civ is very uh similar in most jurisdictions so yes you could have that layer of support and it could be uh Dynamic and and successful however you need to do it in a structured way legitimate way and a way that offers a qualitative approach because in the GCC there is high demand for quality and speed so it has to be within that parameters and within that formula if it misses out it will be a catastrophe yes it's very true uh it's just that there is a trend I've seen it few years ago with it Outsourcing to countries like India and Pakistan for example and and making the the the center of the base of the operation in in Europe or in in the US out sourcing big part of it and then the trend uh goes to uh IT services and uh accounting and then other services and now I'm seeing this trend happening a lot in the legal industry that you hire lawyers remotely from anywhere in the world and you start billing them from jurisdictions that it's been happening all the time H from International firms they have their back support from other jurisdictions it's happening but in what product it's offered some products can work some proper products like litigation and hearing of course it doesn't work so it depends on the product and depends but all organizations are being trying to be resourceful and cost efficient and resourceful efficient so that's uh a trend it just needs to be managed carefully because it could be very risky yes absolutely what what about yourself can you advise on Qatar on Saudi on Egypt and on the UAE well with with with such a restarting background as you described it it what the feature that is common is restarting all over again you acquire experience in different jurisdictions so the demand of the clients sometimes you are asked to do expert opinions about jurisdictions where you're not placed because you have the expertise you don't have a conflict so I I I can't run away unfortunately from my past I do get uh requests to do work on different jurisdictions myself and uh some of our colleagues in these jurisdictions yeah I would like that you I mean you have a big operation in Egypt and uh and and and for their Partners I guess started there uh I would like that you tell me uh or suggest a new law or uh suggest a change in the law in this jurisdiction uh from European that's something that Egypt needs well to be honest at the suggested amendment I managed to insert it into the investment law and I would like it to be changed in the government services law that deals with government uh officials and the bureaucracy which is a provision that states that the kpis of government officials are directed towards speed and efficiency and satisfaction of the service provider recipients whether it's uh people getting a government service or investors or whatnot uh this provision I think is crucial and inspirational to change the culture of government officials from uh delivering a job that they have to get done and rid off versus delivering it with satisfaction of the recipient as a require enement to affect the change because we need a cultural change and cultural change cannot happen without rule of law so that is one of the changes I would like to see happening in the way government officials are dealing with government services whatever they may be whether investment related or um uh immigration related or whatever I think that would help bring a a massive and important change uh can you give me a little bit of an advice that is directed to lawyers who uh look up to people like you examples who are successful lawyers who reach to uh be successful as managing Partners In the End to be honest I think the key word in all that is discipline and being ready to start all over again that's the road of success that I know uh or the road of committing to your job that I've been exposed to uh maybe there are more successful lawyers who have a different role but my experience in life has been the key component of it is discipline and hard work and there's no other shortcut to it and I tell Junior lawyers who join us I tell them I wish I had another version to tell you but if you don't spend 12 14 hours a day trying to research and build up your KN how in the first 10 years the outcomes in your generation the following 10 years will be very poor because you're in a very competitive M at our time we were the only class of English law students look at how many English law students are there in the region so you have to work very hard and there's no shortcut and I think I'll take a quote from Will Smith uh about this he once said that uh it's not about uh being the smartest guy in the room or the most uh uh best looking guy it's about the treadmill I have the capacity that if I need to stay on that trimill I'll stay there until I die until I drop off that trimill it's all about that the other things are gifts you might have or you might not have but what you control in your hands and what you can do is hard work and discipline thank you very much for all the advice and thank you very much for being with us today thank you Ahmed for hosting me on such a lovely uh interview thank you this is your dose from Monday legal see you next week