[Music] problem in this is that I see a lot of a lot of challenges when it comes to ucation my name is Ahmed Elnaggar and this is Monday Legal my guest for today is uh the famous Yosr Hamza she is the director uh legal and compliance in Gartner Middle East good morning oh good morning thank you very much for coming and uh thank you for I know I know very well how busy you are in in all the work family and other social events that you uh handle and uh we're very happy to have you here likewise I'm very happy as well to be here with everyone today thank for having me thank you very much Y what what's the what the Ben let's say what's the major benefit that uh an in-house lawyer would um whether a woman or not uh in in in the law would benefit from joining an ACC for example the community because the community and the network the not the value of the information I've got through the ACC my community like you get a lot of contact you get to speak to a lot of peoplein the community the value they they add sometimes is beyond what you get from from normal Private Practice persons because a lot of times we get take an example of the regional headquarter requirement I'm not get offended h no no no nothing nothing against it but just just like it's like for example someone has the region headquarter requirement and what kind of exceptions you apply right it's these things that are not legal they're not they're not necessarily legal things mainly administrative orate government corporate governance or things that are not by law but these are all things that are practiced and we are a region we we're on steroids when it comes to laws and regulations but there's a lot of things that are all by practice yeah what kind of exceptions we get what kind of not exceptions you know like how does it apply in reality what's your experience in this these are things you'll not find in the law these are things that all in-house Community just get to experience and we share that experience the second thing I've done is and I think it I didn't realize the value until it happened is we get to share profiles when someone is hiring like this is someone I met before I think they have a good quality start referring people to each other I've personally hired someone um for 6 months as a maternity cover that was actually referred to me by one of my mes so that's actually one of the benefits of having a me Mentor menty relationship but that person is also active in the ACCC so you get to experience that too like the community we get to trust each other you get to know about each other and therefore we can easily start like referring each other so it's the community and the network that you get to build that is so invaluable and I think I got got to build that globally not just locally um I think that's that's where I the most value I personally took out of it because I feel one I I feel my role is not restricted to Mana two I enjoy meeting people and I think after my kids diagnosis I've been very hybrid for such a long time that I wanted to meet people beyond my jurisdiction and learn about their experiences and that was invaluable no matter how someone tells me that was one of the most invaluable things because the more you get exposed to people outside your community outside who challenge your thoughts and biases that's invaluable and this is something I got to experience through the ACC myself and I would argue that you know if you're an in-house lawyer try to do it but get engaged not just with the chapter locally do it with the people outside they will challenge your thought process they will challenge your your your the way that you think about your own department and that's something that for me it was invaluable in in its entirety on top of all the the roles and the the duties that you have on top of having a family and being a caregiver uh you um I I I saw recently a an app and uh I thought maybe it's connected to you it's called the Yer app is that yours so yeah we me my friends and I are working on this thing and I can share the background one I know it like the name is like sounds like sound sounds like my name but I think the idea is that I am a caregiver to kid who is entirely disabled and uh it's been 5 years now the thing is about it is I I struggled I struggled not because of the diagnosis it's a journey on its own but I struggle to find information I struggle to find Community I struggle to find what equipment he needs the all the information that makes my journey focused and easy was absolutely all over the place and because I'm a lawyer by practice I managed to do my own research and I became almost like a mini doctor of my kids diagnosis because it's so rare like I go to doctors they Google it in front of me now I became okay with that like thing but the idea is I there is an area of opportunity where not every person who is in my shoes who would have to go through the same cycle again it just doesn't make sense it's illogical it's time to change that narrative for caregivers so the name came out of the fact that we wanted to make it easy so Y in Arabic means easy yeah we want to make that journey of caregiving easy we want the caregivers to just focus their time and be there for their kids when they're still alive I was told my kid would only be you know survive 3 months old so and here we are five years I want to be able to enjoy those five years without having to worry about what's the next equipment I have to do what's the next Doctor I have to visit I want everything to be handled in one area I want that to be a repository for people like me to whenever they need some help they go there support nannies you know even if it's funeral arrangements I know it's hard to say this but it's lawyer Arrangements funeral arrangements uh Nursery schools we need to be that in one area instead of going and having to Google where is the next goal to go in Dubai so we can focus in our Journeys as our kid enjoy that quality time with them while they're still there because we never know either we might not be there the next time or they may not be there and I got to say I know it's a hard conversation to have but that's the reality of that Journey it will happen and we have to be okay with it and you just have to figure it out so helping the parents enjoy quality time with their kids making their kids you know their Journey a little bit easier than having it as a One-Stop shop we're still at the very beta versin so we're like working on the at the back end making sure what um features we want to launch first because it's a huge plan for us like we have a huge plan for the application so we're working on the beta version on what feature do you want to launch first but the idea for us on long term is that this is One-Stop shop for caregivers by the caregivers social Enterprise nonprofit so caregivers can focus only on their kids and have that quality time while they're still alive it's it's really inspiring and thank you so much for working on this app and I think it is going to help the society uh pretty much first to educate a lot of people who don't know about uh the struggles that some of the not just lawyers working moms and and and and families about uh things like this but uh in general having such uh an application or or a solution would be amazing let me take you to um what one step back what did you figure out during the journey that are the legal um rights of a caregiver towards her job or towards her company because a lot of women out there who mothers or a lot of families out there who might think that I'm going to lose my job because of that or I'm not going to be able to um accommodate uh my life sorry my work to my life as usual however that I understand there might be some legal uh rules that help the working uh mothers and parents who have a special condition in the family like that and if there's nothing what do you suggest that comes into the law I think one thing I I hope um more employers so one thing I I I think the uee did beautifully is that at least we have an a non-discrimination rule within the law that says like no one can be discriminated you know for any reason even if it's your condition so at least we have a generic um law that applies now I recognize that that's hard to apply in practice or at least proof but my my ask at least for employers uh in general now for me I was one of the lucky that maybe my company didn't know so I went um I remember when I went to to my my manager back then I think luckily enough back then for me was covid so everyone was at home so it didn't feel different when I told them like I want to work flexibly because everyone was stuck at home everyone was like there on their desks we can only see cameras so if it it was only because I shared it some like my management knew they could have not known for more couple of years no one would have even knew that I'm taking a call because I was at the physiotherapist my kid you know for his session the the thing is there are no there's a lot of missing rules one thing I recommend for a lot of employers is actually listen you know we we all forget that we are all temporarily abled someone will have an accident and maybe will have their leg broken someone will have an accident and maybe have something in their leg I understand very well that in the law that it it we kind of covered as if what there are enough regulations and laws and and terms in the law itself and in any Employment contract what happens if I get sick or you get sick but I don't think think there enough regulations and terms that covers the people that we care of and father mother children husband things like that so and I understand your occasion is not a temporary thing that someone has a flu no you're caregiver you will have to take care of your child in a specific way I don't think you're able to go to the office just as as anybody else so do you recommend or do you see that this is an important thing to be changed in the employment law yes so I that actually takes me to the second level if we can't confirm our own abilities we can't also confirm and guarantee our kids and and dads and and fathers and parents abilities and all of these things actually put restrictions on the people you're losing a lot of talent by just abiding by the fact that there are rules to like that focuses on that we need to be more human when we're actually drafting those laws and regulations in my opinion and that's across the Middle East not just here the the the entire law is very it's great by the way I think we're we're but I think the law doesn't cater for the fact that we're human beings it doesn't cater for the fact that someone will have to care for someone at some point and they could be a really really good talent and if you don't offer them flexibility or you know being able to work certain hours or not being able to work remotely we're going to lose them in my opinion it should be seen as an exception the fact that we're still seeing and and calling those as special accommodations as special as an exception that I have to require an exception to work remotely that's what makes the entire thing like people are scared to disclose their entire you know entire situations to their employers because they're afraid that people see it an exception and maybe the employer will accept it or not because it's in the employer's discretion but if we make it as a mandate if we give those options in the law we are humanizing the entire employment experience we're humanizing our own employees but also humanizing ourselves as employers do you actually see in the in in the caregiver Community um that there are employees who hide the status of their uh children or someone that they care about sadly yes and some people actually had to leave their jobs because their employers didn't want to accommodate flexible working hours you see that globally by the way not just in the region now again you have to understand that in our region we don't have the facilities to care for kids like ours we don't have trained nannies you have like you go and start asking on those mom's groups what is the right Nanny to get in my home maybe that parent can't afford having a nanny why are we assuming that if you need to work that you can actually afford an maybe that person can't afford an nany but they need the job in fact many of us as caregivers would have to do much better than any other employee because we need that job for our sanity because it gives us a sense of purpose Beyond caring for someone for our entire life the lucky ones have been in employers where who are more of a multinational so the ones who have seen it globally and would be able to get some of those policies and put them in a local perspective one thing I think we can do as companies not just as legislators is see what the other companies like globally is happening globally there's a lot of great policies that we can adopt such as working hours such as again as as legislators there some people are in some states are given options that they can get a nurse a caring nurse on the States you know on the state's expense they can expend some of that some in the US have caregiving um they have like a certain number of days where they can actually care for someone and they don't like this is not considered as their PTO the fact that I have to use my own PTO when my kid is in hospital that's not I would to say it's unfair but again it dehumanizes the entire employment experience I think one key is when we're looking on the entire um experience of the employment regulations is humanizing the entire employment experience we we we're excluding an entire talent pool just because we're assuming that those people are not capable because they have a situation like mine while they could be adding value in fact they are going to add value because their perspective is different I think the second thing we we need to consider is if even if the law doesn't change as employers offer options don't make them as an exception offer those options to your entire staff some people thrive in being in office some people will Thrive being out of office it is what makes them successful if we can trust our employees by having those choices then in my opinion that's the wrong environment and that's a very personal opinion that has nothing to do with my employer but we need to trust our employees by knowing how they can be successful is it being working from a cafe is it working from office is it working from outside now it differ differs of course between Generations differs on your level of experience I recognize that and I have to respect it but in general I'm talking about from one person to the other as well maybe it's someone I remember in during Co someone had um got got to be diagnosed with ADHD at his 4S just because he for such a long time there was a lot of distractions that never had him on understand a lot of the patterns in his behavior only when he was stuck in Co on a desk that he started figuring out like there's something wrong here and he actually got diagnosed with ADHD in his 40s just imagine for his entire life he didn't know this again I remember for me it took me a lot of time to be okay with this entire Journey um and Talking even about it on a podcast like this at the moment I would have hoped that we have a longer maternity leave I would have hoped that my husband gets the option too the fact that we don't get those two dads as well he it for me I I think he he it dehumanized his entire experience it's like he was assumed that he he accepted it it was assumed that he has to be a strong person a strong dad a strong man he can't cry he can't like grieve like what about him he doesn't get to grieve that he doesn't get like any any time with his kid the fact that we don't give that option to dads to I think that's wrong the fact is what if I actually passed away during the during my maternity like you know during during the pregnancy and he was the only one caring for the kid would we just ask him to go back to office just because he's a father not the mother I think that's that's just I don't think there is anything in the law that would cover for this more than one day for the funeral because there is an assumption there's an assumption the fact that we our kids will be you know normal healthy able normal can do everything I think that's the fact that we're still assuming I think that's that's wrong and again it excludes an entire population that still have to struggle and prove that they can do a lot of things and I don't I in my opinion we don't have to be in a position to prove who we are to prove that we're capable to prove that we can do the job why do I have to prove it if I actually did it before if I did it before what what actually prevents me from doing it now that I think that that's just there's a lot of assumptions and I think it's human nature because we're trying to put people in boxes we need to listen to that community and understand their experience and start putting some regulations that actually caters for them because it will not just benefit us it will benefit the entire Community we raas we raas a generation I just came I mean an idea came to my head right now and maybe we we take this chance to to start something uh something to start to do something about it what did you what do you think of putting together a template or a a model for internal regulations for companies and we start actually giving it for free to companies who are um I don't know big corporations who don't have this kind of Regulation internally and we can just tell them lawyer verified regulations for free take it apply it and more companies who will um let's say endorse this idea and and take it uh uh and and implement it and I think at a certain level it will come to to the legislator one day through the app we're hoping offering a lot of those free resources I think the idea is that we want to create an ecosystem where it makes sense right so we will start actually launching this hopefully through the application where we have those resources not just to the care givers we want to start caring for the people who care for those people right so it's doctors it's nurseries it's employers and even at some point having that you know a platform that offers opportunities to those caregivers who want to work flexibly who wants to work part-time that they can see those employers and start applying for their jobs there as well so it kind of yeah we're we're hopefully looking to be honest we're looking at the ecosystem at the moment um so yeah hope in and have that for the application one day best of luck I'm very happy uh that you talked about it and I'm very happy to uh look at all the legal angles and learn more and more about you every time we talk we have a very interesting discussion and I'm very happy we had you here I'm a very interesting person hopefully it was a a it was a useful um discussion for the audience as well and they got something out of it and you know for me for the ones who know me humanize yourself as lawyers we tend to um hide from who we are as people and we think we just need to be professional strong we're humans so humanize your entire experiences as lawyers hopefully that's my takeaway for you all today thank you very much y thanks for coming we really enjoyed thank you so much for having me today thank you very much this is your dose from Monday legal see you next week