[Music] good morning I'm Ahmed Elnaggar and this is Monday legal after summer and we are recording again my guest for today is Andre he's a client advisor in the Dubai office and UA uh from the company passport Legacy good morning Andre and thank you very much for being with us today good morning Ahmed thank you so much for having me in your show thank you for the opportunity to be here and to talk about my tra and myself thank you and I've been watching you closely for a while and I've been looking at your company and there's a lot of things that you're doing you started in Dubai and then you're expanding uh outside of the UAE as well into many other countries the business of passport Legacy have extended from citizenship by investment into residency by investment and you're advising your clients in many other ways I would like you to start with introducing yourself better than me tell me about your journey and then tell me a little bit more about what business do you do um and how do you assist your clients so my name is Andre as you know I came from Portugal you might have heard of it because of our boy Cristiano Ronaldo and uh like yourself I was a lawyer there for almost 7 years and I stud I spent all my life in Portugal my qualification was there and after law school I started interning and staying in the same office basically for more than more or less 6 years now it's the the precise time runs away from me and in this office I was advising a lot of foreign clients doing their investments in Portugal mainly in property through the Portuguese golden Visa so I got a taste of the servicing International clients into doing investments in a country that they don't know they don't know the laws they don't know the procedures etc etc I did this for 6 years as uh in a law firm and then uh in 2020 I had kind of a midlife crisis a pre- midlife crisis and I switched a bit my my industry I went to to be an in-house lawyer for a real estate development but still I have the it to I missed the client side advising the client side and the commercial side when you sit with a client and you need to Ash up a deal to see if you can get them to sign a retainer and to get them on your side at this same time um at this same time I got an offer to to come to Dubai to work with passport Legacy this was in 2021 and um and here I am basically it's been 3 years years and um been a fruitful three years doing the citizenship by investment I was doing before I was very focused on the Portuguese golden Visa program and these days we do as you know we do all the programs we do Caribbean programs we do European residency programs and so on and so forth this is very interesting because um what started to be a a business like immigration law in general was started to be a business that a lot of law firm uh Law Firm worldwide were assisting their clients to do we see right now that some professionals are just specializing in this kind of advisory and some of them are not even lawyers how do you see this shift in the change because I understand what you and me understand about immigration about the rules and about even the due diligence process that goes and gets involved in this a lot of non- lawyers are still doing this business and Advising on it so basically the differen is between and this is where we as a company are a bit different as well we have all backgrounds in banking finance and the service industry in large so it's very different if you and if you allow me the expression if you sell a passport then to advise a client that comes to you as a set of as a set of requirements and instead of you automatically trying to push him to one solution or the other you try to craft something for this client because as you very well know there's there's a shoe for every foood but you need to find the right the right fit and this is where an approach as a lawyer I sets us apart when it comes to when a client tells I want a second passport I want a second residency you might be driven only by Price or by but you really need to see what's the client situation where do income comes from is there a specific country that that he requires access to that is banking a big thing tax efficiency as well and the higher the let's say the caliber of the client in terms of netw worth and complexity in terms of their situation the more knowledgeable professional has to be so I think we lawyers always have the advantage when it comes to that because we have a different touch and a different approach to that yeah I I completely agree with you we have this kind of uh it's not a superpower but it's it's is kind of a skill that builds up throughout the years we tend to not just provide the service that the client asked for we always ask please tell me your situation m a lot of circumstances whether family business traveling um I don't know exposure if there are in the in politics or exposure in other business risks and so on this will take me to a question mark that I always had because me personally I was always interested into how would my life be if I have a second passport because I have only one passport I never had a problem with this passport I always apply for visas into any country and I get the visa maybe it's a little bit inconvenient when it comes to uh how many days my passport is not with me uh the limitation of the time that I get when I apply for a Visa how does it look like what what does it change in an entrepreneur life or a person life to have a second passport so the first and foremost reason that people still turn to this industry as you said is the ease of access to certain jurisdictions most people want to go to to Europe to the UK etc etc be this for uh business reasons travel reasons or just for leisure uh what's the biggest change is that you have this not only the passport because what we advise is in citizenship so it comes with a full lost of other rights that don't end with a passport but the biggest change the biggest implication and the thing that we hear our clients do first is they pick up their passports and they go somewhere and they send us a a photo of the getting their visas their Passport St so especially I would say that if you travel a lot throughout the year if if you if you need to go to Europe quite frequently and if you are for from a certain uh nationality or from a certain place you know very well that they will not give you a shenen Visa that is longer than 2 years or longer than 3 years and this very inconvenient sometimes they give you one entry you know how this goes sometime you have to deal with VFS you have to deal with authorities that are where the process is very comp is very opaque it's very faceless where you don't you you don't have a person to go to talk to to about your application to see if if they don't accept it what can you do about it so this is the biggest and immediate change second change for some of our clients it's it immediately raises their risk profile for certain nationalities access to the banking system is very complicated this is always changing uh as we speak people from Africa from for whatever reason they they are some banks don't want to deal with them because they have they are considered high from high risk jurisdictions not highrisk themselves but the jurisdiction where the funds are coming from or where they're coming from can be considered high risk and opening bank accounts can be difficult uh some countries cannot obtain s um residency here in the UAE Nigerians until very recently they were banned from getting their their UAE residency here and lots of them want to want open companies here and invest so the passport solves a lot of sorts a lot of these issues more and more we are starting to see a shift in the type of clients that we are getting of course our biggest demand always comes from if you allow me the usual suspects southeast Asia Middle East and Africa yeah uh but more and more we are seeing European clients and American clients come to us because more than the ease of access to certain jurisdictions they want to be covered from a taxation perspective they don't want to be subject to Global taxation if they have been experts for long for long enough imagine um German gentleman living in Thailand for instance has been there for 20 years there has no intention to come back to Germany Germany is about to implement a worldwide taxation law he has no interest in paying taxes in Germany so if he can renounce his citizenship and obtain a passport that covers him from this that still enables them a very good level of Mobility then this is this is good and this is what we're seeing more and more in significant numbers of of uh clients of this profile which are not the typical people look for this these programs to come to us and engage in these Solutions so it's really not just the strength of the passport that someone have is actually a situation thing So based on your situation your finances based on where you live and how you your family is structured maybe even your businesses you might have a very strong password but you don't want it anymore exactly exactly for Portugal for instance during uh during my years there as a lawyer we had a lot of Lebanese clients and uh that had children that has uh that were Lebanese American they didn't they never lived in the US they had no interest in doing so and they were doing The Residency long term as a possibility to apply for a Portuguese passport and to to renounce their their US citizenship to avoid dealing with the global taxation the fatka and so on and so forth I I think this whole business of passport and citizenship by investment is is quite new is like the last 20 years only or maybe a little more a little more so basically the first program that implemented such a program was St kids in 1984 to the program turn turns 40 years this uh this year it's the oldest in the industry so they gained independence in 1983 and they live mostly of Tourism and they said right we need another source of Revenue so they devised this program and basically uh Dominica followed in 1991 but we saw the industry took a major shift to being much more popular and in terms of number of applicants in the early 2010s so there was a revamp of the Caribbean programs European residency by investment programs came to to play as well this was after the financial crisis so these countries needed for needed foreign investment to come into their economies and this was a this was a scheme that was adopted by Portugal Greece and Spain basically it it provides I think a lot a lot of freedom a lot of options for entrepreneurs who are on high net worth individuals who are coming from backgrounds that might as you said be considered as a high risk and have certain restriction on traveling and so on yeah and maybe um I think providing them with with future Solutions exactly so most people especially here in the U there are people that are looking this of course we have a lot of single applicants that are looking for it for themselves but I would say that 60 70% of our PE of our people are family are family men or women and the kids and what they are going to to have in the future ease of access to other jurisdictions this is always a top top concern so it's they it's always multigenerational in terms of how can they do to have my kids to have access to opportunities that I didn't have to study in Europe to study in the UK to study in us or to to be able to move to pursue uh professional opportunities outside of whatever wherever they are and so on and so forth so this is always a big concern I'm I'm coming from a country that the word selling passport can be a a a red flag like something that the population a lot of people media anchors would go against and say what is our government doing is there really is a shameful thing are you now selling our citizenship what is the feeling about this in in in these Caribbean island countries and and in Europe I mean even Egypt right now have this program they don't advertise it a lot because it's it's a quite a new uh program in it but what is the let's say what's the morale behind this kind of change so just a small comment which we opened an office in Cairo not uh some two months ago and uh we are we are starting to promote the Egyptian program as well uh because we are in the country right so it's the industry the industry I'll be very Frank with you the industry has a image problem because the the lay man always sees this OIC the thing for oligarchs and multi-millionaires and uh I don't know what and for non- recommendable people that want to to hide something or to or to avoid something I can tell you this is not the case first of all the the amounts that the amounts that are required it starts at $200,000 us this still a lot of money but it's it's not it's not for the ultra Rich it's not for the mega mega rich people is also affordable for many yeah it's affordable for many um if you're success businessman you can look into this for your family and the kind of people that come to us they they are business people that came up they don't have Solutions coming from their background lots of families that are wealthy and gener generationally Wealthy they have they old another passport but a UK passport an European passport something like this that is passed down in our case people come to us because they they are successful in their business and they want to to access all of these benefits so that what is public perception of the type of applicants and people that actually do it is very different plus the in all of the countries that we work with we work with government sanction programs that have very strict due diligence procedures so that that you can that you cannot get the passport in any way these days it's not only your uh criminal background and not only convictions but if you have court cases pending against you this is this is a big no no if you have Visa rejections from from the countries where you have Visa free access you cannot get the passport as well more and more countries are demanding for people to provide in terms of and this is in line with higher demands in terms of anti-money laundering uh directives they're demanding that people show adequate source of funds by provide submitting company documents and so on and so forth so due diligence is quite stringent we uh we try to be very strict with the people that we on board uh we'd like how I success rates to to be there and we don't want to onboard people that will not get it so this is one in terms of in the countries themselves I come I come from a country that has a golden Visa program such same as you come from a country with a citizenship by by investment program so the media is always very skewered against these programs because they as I said they think it's only oligarchs and criminals that want to hide something and to change their name and get a new passport and a bit like a spy novel almost of sorts but uh but yes I and I think this is the general consensus around these programs uh in the Caribbean uh this is not the case because in most of these countries they have as little as 40,000 inhabitants they live off tourism and this is a Big Boon for their economy so there's a whole host of service providers that work this IND the islands and the funds are channeled into into infrastructure projects to to develop the islands themselves so the the governments and the people there they are ke to have the programs of course regulated properly so that there's no corruption no Mis appropriation of funds and that everything runs and that they run a clean sheep in Europe of course the is different as you know now there's a lot of discussions around the programs that are based on real estate because housing prices are quite High everywhere and in Europe they say that this is inviting people to come over and to put even further pressure but it is what it is I I think it's it's a great source of income for for these governments who are actually should be deploying These funds into infrastructure and developing their economies and as you as we rightly said in the Caribbean islands they live of Tourism and the more citizens and the more I mean growing this population could could benefit uh them uh I'll ask you I don't know maybe a funny question if I get a Caribbean passport and I have a uh another 40,000 um fellow citizens from the same country I have a much higher chance to uh to be elected as the president one day can I go into can I benefit I think you can run to to Parliament but uh I think you can run into Parliament but there's some limitations when it comes to that and don't forget the head of state in much of most of this country in all of the Caribbean countries actually is the is King Charles II so yeah so I I'm but I'm sure there are quite a few limitations not a question that that we hear every day that people I want to get this passport so that I can go and run this island according to my to my desires but yes maybe you can get into the Olympic team something like this if you're very good at a sport so so yeah but as a as a citizen of of one of these countries you benefit basically from everything as another citizen would benefit from yes basically some of these countries have restrictions when it comes to passing down the city cens ship um but uh it's about 50/50 some of them have some of them don't uh some of the countries uh you still have to go through certain Services through the citizenship by investment unit uh some others like grene they you are a citizen you can go to the Embassy or to the cons the consulate is is I think is here in the same Tower where we record exactly so I hope they they are hearing us you can go there and get police police clearance certificate any document from the the government that you need basically yeah tell me an example or two about the problems or the legal trouble that someone would have that might block his uh application so if I have ever been convicted of uh money laundering for example or assisting a crime of this kind would I be able to to get the passport uh no this more and more they are getting very stringent with uh with who they ccept so of course you have to produce a clean criminal record not only from the country where you're from but wherever you have lived in uh where it lived for more than one year so you have to be clean in all the jurisdictions that you have touched basically and it's not only convictions the we do we do our own background checks through open sources using using the software I'm sure you use for your clients as well but uh the authorities have access obviously to to to law enforcement agencies all over the world so they can see that if someone has a pending case against them in some cases people can be refused depending on if they have a criminal case that did not result in a conviction but it's serious enough that they consider it if uh if they are being investigated by the Interpol by the europol by any any any any police force um Visa rejections are a big no no especially from Europe and the UK uh because these countries are are in very close contact with with the with the jurisdictions that have citizenship by investment schemes to make sure that they run a CL a clean ship and that they are not a Gateway for for people to come into Europe or to the UK if they could not apply for normal Visa otherwise and some countries more than others they are quite stringent when it comes to what you show as Financial reports and etc etc I think this is amazing because what you're saiding right now can give me a little bit of more much more Comfort dealing with someone who applied and have been granted this kind of approval so if someone comes to me with I don't know Turkish passport and at the same time he have a a Granada passport I understand that he does not just pass D diligence he passed a very stringent due diligence process that you as a company have checked them the government of Granada have checked them and kind of the whole network of the Visa free countries they have no problem with any of them that means that someone holding this kind of passport is getting a lot more recognized as checked and verified this this you can easily see as well from the fact that the the you the US this is in their backyard it's their area of influence the cre the the Caribbean and they are the the Department of State works very closely with with the citizenship by investment units even though you don't have Visa free access to the US they they they are close to these authorities and they they get you visas on your new passport no problems and it's even easier if you apply with your native passport depending of course on the jurisdiction that you have and you can get it for 10 years and so on and so forth so it's quite a seal of extra compliance let's say from from a client who went through this process and actually got the passport in the end one of the things that I've seen a lot especially on on social media ads I see an advertising saying uh get an Italian passport for €30,000 uh you know I know it's it's either scam or fake or something that is something wrong I mean how do you where are these advertising coming from is there any control from Facebook and Instagram or I don't know other social media platforms on ads yeah so firstly this industry in an age where we have access to so much information this industry is remarkably opaque there's a lot of contradicting information if you can go if you go to two different websites you get three different answers to the same question so it's not easy as a lay man let's say we're starting to look into this you consult three or four websites and your head is spinning because you don't know where can I get reliable information first advice is always deal with the uh when it comes to the Caribbean to a govern government licensed agent it's our case uh and with someone reliable um secondly if it's something is too good to be true because it probably is so it's it's been doing the rounds quite frequently that you can get Romanian citizenship by descent regardless of where you're from for 440,000 50,000 there's uh there's stories of and this is a It's a Small industry it's like a echo chamber you can you hear these things coming around because someone will ask you oh but I heard my friend with a company for Mexican passport or something like this and if it's not a government sanction program if you cannot go to to a site that ends in.gov and see that they have a sanction program running there I would advise people be very careful where you put your money and who do you invest with because the media platforms they they do not because even uh I don't think they all all the keys to to do that and it's very easy to to find conflicting information on non-accurate information for instance there was a price increase um a price increase in all the Caribbeans they signed the memorandum all together yeah I think that was that happened very recently yeah in July but if you go online there's a lot of companies that did not update their websites yet in terms of pricing so people it's very easy to get confused why is this why is this company charging me double than the other ones or why is this one so cheap and the other one is asking me for for so much more money you know so yeah mky Waters to navigate it's not easy I I think basically as a lawyer is the same thing don't go look for your answers in Google just go speak to a lawyer it will cost you money but it will cost you less than than a bad solution that absolutely so legally to make sure I'm dealing with a company that is U certified and actually is a professional company who does citizenship by investment or residency by investment program I have to ask them for a license for example that you see their activity and to make sure that they are uh authorized from that program do you have something like that yes we have our government uh we have our government licenses in in our offices I didn't bring them with me for the camera but uh but we we have them yes so Andre I I tell you I'm a potential uh customer for this but I have been potential for 2 three years honestly because I'm thinking about this for a long time and I don't have a major problem traveling so I feel like maybe yes maybe no one of the most questions that always come to me should I go for an European program where the passports are quite stronger and the possibilities are maybe much more or should I go to the Caribbean islands where the cost is a little less and I pay for what I get you know I pay a certain amount I get the travel Document whether it's a passport or something else what is the major difference you know I will I will step into my role for as an adviser for you now so basically what we have is different tools for different jobs if you want a short to medium term solution that doesn't require a big personal commitment in terms you don't need to go anywhere you don't need to to visit anything Caribbean passport soles gives you a traveling document that is considerably strong that gives you access to a lot of jurisdictions access to facilities in the Caribbean as well the Caribbean are part themselves of the CARICOM which you have access to Barbados to Jamaica if you'd like to retire in Jamaica don't know if you're entertain this possibility yet or not um but this is a short to medium-term solution that covers a lot of of bases uh the Europe programs most of them are residency programs which are quite different some of most of them can lead to citizenship by naturalization and the European passport more than the Visa free access the Visa free access it's a numbers game most of the time same kids has 162 countries will you visit 162 countries in your lifetime you need the bigger ones covered and these countries know that this is a numbers game that when you crunch that and you want to present something in the website it's nice to have a higher number than a lower number for me an European passport more than more than the Visa free access and most of the European passports cover Visa free access to the US to Canada to Australia these are the big ones more than that is the right to settle in any country in the EU in the same um in the same conditions as the national of this country me for instance I'm a Portuguese citizen let's say I do well enough in the business I will retire in the south southern Italy my all immigration process is I need to find a place to live this can be rented this can be bought there's not a minimum amount I go to the municipality that is responsible for the area where I'm living I showed them my lease agreement here and they gave me a paper saying you are no legal resident so for me this is more than anything this is the power of the European passports question there is there are there is one uh citizenship by investment program in Europe where you can invest directly in obtaining a passport this is Malta all the other ones are residency by investment programs uh most people that look into this look into it as a medium to long-term solution in the sense that they can buy a property do an investment there even diversify they keep the residency in their pocket and some of them are expats here they see they know that after they retire they they wouldn't want to live there but they wouldn't want to live in their country as well so they will buy a property in Europe in Greece or in Spain for instance uh they can use it for summer they can rent it out get the passive income and uh at the same time have the residents in their pockets they don't need to apply for shingen visas anymore and um and this works in the background for them especially Portugal is quite popular because uh after a certain amount of time you can apply for Portuguese citizenship even if you don't live in the country where in Spain and Greece you have a minimum amount of years where you need to live there for for for a number of years so I would say that if money is No Object uh if money is No Object you you should do both both you will be very well covered in terms of you'll diversify your risk you'll have another passport you can travel whenever you want and uh for the other ones you can for example you can buy a property in Greece uh I know you are a fan of Greece so you can buy a property in Greece and rent it throughout the year or use it or use it as a holiday home for your family and whenever you want to spend more time they you free to do so as well so there's not in terms of pricing the difference is way less now with the price increase in July the pro the prices are much more close than they used to be it's a difference in quality and exactly what is your plan for the long-term future if you tell me Andre I'm traveling 12 12 to 14 times a year to business for Europe I cannot I cannot surrender my passport every time but the Visas that are getting me are very short and do the Caribbean passport but I really want the the European then we can look into this more as a long-term solution with more time and consideration but as we said earlier there's a there's a shoe for every foot and it's a matter of tailoring a solution that that makes sense for you at the end of the day yeah and in terms of the investment itself because uh I I I understand that some of the Caribbean island programs they have like a donation amount that we pay to the government and then you will be eligible for the program and some others where we have to cont rute an amount of money as an investment that's real investment of buying a property or in an investment fund or something like this do you see this kind of money um since you in the business for such a long time a lot of investors when they think of the money that they put and they're not very familiar with the solution they always question is this money ever coming back since you've been in the business for a while have you seen the money coming back to the investors so so basically in the Caribbean as you said there are two two options let's say uh same same kids created the blueprint on this and basically all the countries follow this format more or less where you have a donation route which is always cheaper than the real estate and there's a real estate route the real estate route is very closely linked with tourism so there's in some countries you have the option to buy a standalone Freehold property but in most cases you have to invest in what is designated as government approved real estate project which is usually a resort and this goes hand inand with the tourism so basically you're investing in the country in the strongest sectors both ways and boosting their economy most clients because the the the real estate option is is not a freehold properties most people when they hear real estate they get very interested because the real estate game is something where you can put your money you have bricks and mortar you have a tangible asset and people would like this option most people when they start finding particulars that they are investing in a share in a hotel that uh that they can only sell after 5 years that they get they get yal is something that they cannot use it's basically a piece of paper more than more than a tangible asset they think oh I would rather do a donation and most of our clients still go for the donation route however if you choose the hotels we try not to work there's a lot of uh there's a lot of projects in the Caribbean we try to work with developers that have track record that have delivered projects because we try to mitigate risk uh I try to mitigate risk because the last thing the last thing I want is a client calling me like uh where is my money where's my investment you know you ad after five years and we live from repeated business if if you do if you do if you advise a client properly it will come back to you for sure uh so we try to work with Resorts that deliver where there's they actually build a hotel and the client gets his share and they can sell their share either to another person who is doing the citizenship by investing or on the open market and we always try to work with people that actually deliver something tangible for the client uh in terms of the donation sometimes you donate to a National Fund most of the time some countries however are have uh routs where you invest in a specific project that they are developing in terms of infrastructure can be a road can be a correctional facility um etc etc what about the situations where where inheritance gets involved so for example you have an a client who applied for uh the citizenship and he got the passport and then um the program is like a family program so the main applicant is the father for example and something happened to him before the 5 years uh laps mhm is it easy for the family to get hold of the investment afterwards on the legal side uh from from the from the Caribbean standpoint is is not not very complex most of the most of the countries have foresee uh foresee this type of situation the biggest challenge as you know is depending where the client is from what law applies if it's the law of the asset of the personal law if they left the will or not and so on and so forth so this is this is where we came in as well we always try to to have the client aware of all the the implication I like I like your answer very much because this really proves my point if you deal with someone who understands and have a background in the law you have an answer that makes sense because I asked the same question to couple of other service providers who are providing this kind of service and I didn't get this answer so it makes a lot of sense yeah that I think when whenever there's real estate involved and at the end of the day lawyers more than anything these days we we are service providers and we are in business so we always try to to give the client anili Aries right this is what we do as well uh whatever client even in Portugal came to me to to buy a property for the golden Visa is like have you I was like I don't mean to be green but have you have you taken care of your probate situation you should do a whe in Portugal for to make sure that this goes to the right place yeah so so this is something that we always consider uh whenever there's a real estate in real estate investment involved yeah MH and um just a question I understand for the European programs are mostly uh c um residency by investment and then it leads to citizenship after some some time and when they have the citizenship it will be automatically uh given to their descendants like their kids and the kids of the kids so they have the full right of citizenship that like anybody else because it is not a citizenship by investment but what about the Caribbean island programs is this is something that my kids and the kids of my kids will take forward Yeah so basically uh the country with most limitations is antia MHM uh where basically you can just pass whoever gets it can only pass it down one generation and uh you still have to pay a contribution to the government uh don't forget that these countries live from this so they will uh they would want continued business and revenue coming out of this uh St Luci you can pass it down from endlessly however it's on the second generation you have to be born on the island okay yeah so s kids requires a contribution but you can pass it down endlessly there's no limitation on that is they required you to pay something to the government uh Grenada is very neutral on this uh basically they don't require you a contribution you can pass it down endlessly they will charge you government fees of course something around5 to $6,000 of registration fees but no limitations on that and Dominque is very similar to to St kids are you investing today for uh really a a very big change in your family or not you know are you doing this just for you and maybe your your your son and and daughter or this is something that your lineage will will take it on for many many years and I think such question is is is very relevant to many of the investors or entrepreneurs who are applying for this program it is yeah that's why would call pass Legacy this is where the Legacy comes in yeah absolutely tell me about your company when did you start and uh who's the managing partner and and how big are you in many countries so basically passport Legacy was founded in 2018 2019 uh our founder Jeff Jeffrey an used to work in uh in one of uh big company in the in the industry and he went solo around this time and founded passport Legacy uh the companies DNA is Swiss Jeffrey Swiss most of the top management is Swiss I'm the Portuguese token here um and we started here in in Dubai with the we opened offices as well in Beirut in Pakistan and in Africa in in Nigeria we have two offices there one in Lagos the other one in Abuja in the past two years we open our office in Singapore as well and uh we just open our office in Cairo so this we we we are growing a lot exactly yes we are uh 50 to 60 people in to in total in the company so so yes has been has been good for us um we are diversifying as well we are trying to be ahead of the curve we just don't want to be an immigration agency we want to be a service provider where the client comes in I have a issue and we tell you we got you covered if if we don't know we have an extensive network we can put you if if we don't do it we can always put you in touch with someone that does it uh we also launched our sister company here in Dubai property Legacy uh uh that that is doing real estate here in uh in Dubai okay and um in Greece for instance we we have a real estate project there that all sold out fortunately for the for the golden Visa so yes lots of uh lots of spinning plates here nice how many programs do you uh cover we cover we cover 20 programs easily half in Europe and half in the Caribbean or more or less yes more or less yes last I need you to give an advice for someone who is thinking to have a second passport uh why should they consider it and why what what are the let's say what are the cases when you you tell them you don't need it because part of advising is is is also assessing if the client actually needs this or not uh first of all come come to us come to passport Legacy obviously um secondly this the question is what do you need exactly do you want I mean there's there's people that have that want something for the sake of having something you know I will not stop them uh if I I sometimes clients come to me I want to move to a certain country uh and I want to do the golden Vision I tell them don't do the golden Visa if you're moving there you can get a residency by other means I know someone that can help you obtain a residency either by passive income by setting up your own company you don't need to go through a golden Visa route uh or I need this passport to go here and I'm this understanding is not correct for you to go here the most straightforward way and for you to have access to this jurisdiction you actually don't need to do all that so it really it really and I'll will give you a very loyer answer it really depends on the specific circumstances of the person what they really want and for us to be shrew enough to see what they really need and to come with something that sometimes it's very left field and sometimes just the obvious solution works right so so yeah so this is the more than anything uh my advice to myself is always listen to whoever is sitting in front of you and listen carefully because the answer is within the client you just have a set of tools and you don't give them a fork tweet soup basically yeah so so yeah in a very turnaround way it really depends yeah yeah thank you very much for coming thanks a lot for uh teaching me about the passport Legacy and uh and these kind of services very interesting and I can understand that having options is very important for everybody having an option for a future for education or a future where there's no limitation for your family to travel or to do business worldwide I I I'm uh from the Middle East I'm from Egypt I believe I grew up thinking of this limitation very well and a lot only when I grew up and I started my career and my business things opened up a bit I would have chosen to have a different passport just to have it earlier options maybe to have a lot more freedom to travel when I was younger maybe but I think this option could be a very interesting thing it's a hell of a shortcut right at the end of the day you want to have options you remember when in covid we were all stuck at home and we all want to do things and things went back to normal and you just want to to be home but you want to be home with the option if I want to go here I can go here I can get into my car and I can go to to a restaurant to a show to I can go out with my friendss uh whereas if you're that you you have to be here it's very different and I think this is where the you can like the mental jump comes where you have the options you have amazing tool set you have a residence you have a passport you can go anywhere doesn't mean that you have to go but having the option the option and some people are from very unstable jurisdictions right sometimes you just it's not because you want to go to holidays in southern Europe and enjoy the Mediterranean sometimes you really need to to get out of Dodge quickly and to to walk in a plane and and get off and yeah so this is what we provide a bit of Freedom a bit of legacy and options to people that need them very good thank you very much for coming thank you so much for having me Ahmed it was a pleasure to be here pleasure is all mine and I hope you guys enjoyed it this is your do from Monday legal see you next week