[Music] welcome back to part two I'm Ahmed Elnaggar and this is Monday legal and my guest for uh today is Clotilde Iaia from Yungo legal and we are continuing talking about very interesting topic mainly family law divorce and consequences thank you very much and welcome after the break thank you very much for having me a this cice was really really needed thank you for the break Amed thank you very much I want to ask about the consequences of divorce conflicted divorces like when there is a problem between the the the the husband and wife and they decide to go for divorce and when there is no economical problem so for example if the husband has no problem to provide whatever amount of money to the ex-wife and can cover all the financials of the of the the family and the kids and her what kind of other problems that could legally erupt out of uh uh a divorce that is not economically driven conflict yeah it's child usually it's child custody custody yeah yeah not custody in sense of who's going to take the major decision is more about guardianship like who is the holder of the children M uh and also sometimes you know even if there are no economic issues or there wouldn't supposedly be economic issues um they tend to arise because of a form of Revenge MH so the spouse that felt that has been the the most or that came out of the end of the relationship thinking or having a victim victimization mentality um they tend to put themselves to treat themselves or think of themselves as the victim of the divorce or the decision or maybe when the decision on the divorce is not mutual but it is made by one only of the of the spouses then the other party may feel that they've lost control right on some some part of their life that clearly for them was important and that can cause that even if potentially there wouldn't be any economic issue because that person makes very good money and it wouldn't be such a big issue for them to continue to pay for the children's uh education children's uh food and the wife or the ex-wife uh alimony uh they try and do whatever they can because they simply want to hurt the other person so we see a lot of Reese conflict and then of course an abusive relationship is mostly um the issues that that arise and on which the par is T to fight is the guardianship who keeps the children and the funny fact is that in abusive relationship so the mother wants to protect the children right from further abuse because when there is an abusive relationship the abuser is not just an abuser towards the mother right it's also an abuser towards the children because maybe even if it doesn't hate the children but it's going to be shouting at them or it's going to have Outburst or rage or simply the fact that it's traumatic for a child to see somebody um being aggressive to the mother somebody that they love is is it's not the best environment right so the mothers want to protect the children from being exposed as much as possible to this type of behavior and on the other end abusers are usually very narcissistic so they don't see themselves as abusers they think that they are the victim of the situation and that they are right in everything they say and everything everyone else says is wrong and that happens even sometimes you know they're so narcissistic that they um so Judges usually they are very used to this trait so I think they can find out pretty quickly because somebody who's very narcissistic doesn't perform well in at at hearings or during interview because they would speak to the Social Services and they would want to tell to the Social Services how they have to do their job because they know best they will speak to the judge and they will tell to the judge that they don't understand how this work and this is what they should do mhm and so it's for people that are not in an abusive relationship to see the abuser or the narcissistic traits of somebody is quite easy because you are rational about it you're not involved in the relationship for victim of abuse it takes them years to see the abuse yeah because there so Charmed by the you know maybe the character and narcissistic personalities can be very successful CU they have no empathy so they usually get to work the ranks and get to the top of a corporation because they can only see their goal and that's the only thing that interest to them now again I'm not a psychologist this are just observation interesting no my observation of the things that I see in in in my pra in my daily practice and so it's important for us to so these are the things that happens it's not because these husbands cannot afford most of the time it's not because they cannot afford to pay alimony to their spouses it's because they don't want because it's because they want to win they want to win they think this is that divorce is about winning in a divorce nobody wins they're all losing and the parties and unfortunately the parties that are losing the most are the children so I always try to reason but is sometimes with some personalities I know I cannot reason and this is why I don't even attempt mediation MH because the same way they want to tell their wife what to do they want to tell me what to do they want to impose their point of view and it's really imposs like it's useless I'm we're just going to waste maybe one year two years of someone life making their life even more hard harder than it's already his is and then instead maybe if you go to court in 6 months you have resolution yeah and so far we've that I mean we're very good and we prepare very well for these cases we really prepare uh that when this situation are there the judges can they can see them too the social services can see those situation too yeah and they will take a conservative approach so they will try to preserve the relationship with the father in all circumstances but at the very least they will try to reduce the potential of um additional trauma or risk of uh the Children's Health and wellbe yeah and the good thing is that I learned as well is that the excusion of these verdicts are quite solid so they immediately go into execution and it's in timely manner a lot of decisions are being U implemented uh yeah this also helps because there are usually once the judgment is issued the other parties lawyer will not try to say no we're not going to execute because they know that if you execute the decision we will execute the decision so even in cases with very narcissistic personality at that point honestly but this is what I'm saying like they need to see somebody with a higher authority that gives them the order this is what you're going to do and so I prefer to have that higher authority because I know that my authority will will not be enough the authority of my client of course is undermined she's the victim and being victimized and so we have to F to do our best to make sure that the CH for me it's like my my main interest is let me get the children into a situation where at the very least they have a stable um and and a stable situation and a routine between the parents of course the best thing that two spouses that want to divorce can do for themselves and for their children is to sit down and find a solution there is a law the law is very reasonable it's very clear if you go to court you're not going to get you're never going to get what you want so if you can settle settle it's always the best it's always the best it's never going to be perfect but at least it's going to be that perfect that you have decided that you're fine with but some people they need to be told by a higher authority I totally agree with you and I always advocate for for a um a non-contested divorce is like something with an amicable settlement because at court you don't know what you're going to get there is always R there's always a risk and these are personal matters that you're going to discuss so it's better if in your personal life do you want a third party to tell you what you're going to do possibly not but if you take me there there's enough if I if you put the other party in the position that she has no choice or that he has no choice because the other way also happens at Le there are abusive relationship where the abuser is the is the is the woman there a lot less because of clear s even just for physical reasons yeah but there are and we cannot ignore them the majority that we see is usually women sorry usually men being abusive and in this situation I find that mediation is almost every single time fails it fails because they don't listen mhm MH and they think that they're right and they and also because you know they also know that by dragging things they get to pay less because as long as there is no decision on a money they pay nothing or they pay very little so I've had cases where uh the husband through wife and three children in the street with a salary that it was over 120k per month we didn't pay any alimony or any support for almost a year this was a really long longterm marriage wow uh relationship that Spann over 35 years how can you be so cruel this is not a person that cannot afford to pay alimony this is not somebody that would not afford to pay alimony yeah that was a re revenges uh wor for sure I don't know what it was I'm not sure I think the story there was abuse within the relationship for sure I just think some men if they don't get it their way they just they they just provide until when they feel that you they possess you and then when you're not a possession anymore they're just not going to invest in you it's just really painful for the children really painful cuz imagine children that were living in a nice house had a nice lifestyle and from one day to the other they're homeless so really there are situation where can what can you do what can you do like we try to find an agreement for many many months but then at the end of the day you know if it if the agreement cannot be found Court it it it is what it is we have to go to court because we need to get financial support for the for the mother and the children there are some situations where the abused person or the abused party of this relationship is even not so motivated to go to court because they're not used to it and they're afraid of what is the situation and they have probably no other way to win in the situation or no other way to get the basic rights met or the the basic financial support for the children met other than court but they still have one U they have no other way or they think that they're like in a corner and they can't they don't have a way out so we have a lot like when a woman come to us when a woman comes to us I think she's already done the first step mhm however Sometimes they come to us and they have no plan they have no Financial income they don't have family support they don't have um no knowledge of the law or what to do they don't have a job so we always tell them look before we help you with a divorce or we apply for a divorce we need to make sure that you are in a position to withstand 6 months of uh it's a it's it's a you know it's it's not going to war in a sense you have to be prepared we can't just go to war without having put all our ducks in a row and making sure that we can support you and you can can support yourself and that you're ready psychologically financially and from a from an Evidence point of view so we need to prepare them and ensure that we are able to gather enough evidence to show income from the husband at least uh enough so that we can convince the judge if we're not sure that we have sufficient evidence to show all the income for the judge to appoint um an expert so this takes of course time money so they have to get prepared so sometimes it takes us 6 months to bring a a client to be ready to file for divorce I'm not sure I was thinking that maybe we should speak about how much a divorce cost in Dubai I will go to that but there is one thing that is connected to the topic that we are talking about I might ask you this um do you have an advice for a woman who is on the way to get to divorce are there some things or documents or Preparation that if she knows that it's going to go for divorce for the next two month or something is there something that she could prepare or she could ask or some information that she should know during the marriage so that when she goes into the stage that divorce is happening then she's prepared for that stage so many times women that come we realize that women that come to us for divor especially I have to say smart women that have very good jobs they have no idea about their husband's work their husband Employment contract their husband income they have separate accounts they pay everything separately they share everything 50/50 um some of them didn't even know how much they're paying for school fees uh they have idea uh what their um a jar contract is for um or they have an idea but they don't know if it is in their husband name or in their names um so we have to help help them understand many times to gather information that are relevant to any divorce um to understand their husband's income to understand how much they can um you know to understand how much they can think they can you know claim an alimon for even for child support um to under to to determine what rights we can claim from the husband should we go into litigation regards to alimony and child custody and child alimony so this is very important for them they have to please don't leave in a marriage thinking that you are not entitled to ask these questions some women don't even have the copy of the Emirates ID of their h they have copy no they don't have copy of their husband's passport I'm I am shocked because without Emir said I can't start the case I can't even I can't even start the case so we have to start sometimes from the ABC like we have to tell them so you need these documents and you need a birth certificate and you need to know where these documents and then some some because some of these husband are abusive they also are in full control of any document so let's tell the audience what are the minimum documents you need to have for your spouse if you want to file for divorce okay just for divorce if you want to have a divorce decree uh issued by either Dubai court or Abu Dhabi Court you will need your Emirates CID your husband's emirat ID your children's Emirates ID your children's birth certificate your uh certificate of marriage which if it was um uh if it was drawn up abroad or celebrated abroad will have to be attested and legalized by the uh relevant uh U Embassy in the country of origy you will also um you need an email address you need a telephone number email address and a telephone number you will need access to your UAE pass and a lot of people don't even have a UAE pass yet so we have to make sure that they get one um especially if they are planning to perhaps make the applic ation for the divorce by themselves CU both system the the Dubai court system as well as the court system in Abu Dhabi the portal Works only with the UAE pass although in Abu Dhabi if you are non resident you want to apply for deports you can also do it with your passport because in Abu Dhabi since they have the Civil marriage and they celebrate civil marriage for foreigners as well if they're not even if they're not resident so they for for for those foreigners then they can apply for divorce even just on the basis of uh their passport copies these are the main element that they will need of course to to to make an application for for divorce and how much would it cost approximately just on the administration so from an administrative from the court fees uh Abu Dhabi applies a a rate of 5,300 dams which covers the almost the full uh divorce cases case in including of petitions for child custody and alimony although when you do make the petitions for child custody and alimony you might be required to pay addition additional 250 to 300 dam for each petition in addition to this you need to consider the cost of appointing an expert uh the cost of the expert of course vary between expert and expert and can be a bit different between Dubai and Abu Dhabi but usually we've seen as a standard rate not less than 15,000 Dam uh usually the judge would request the party to split the cost of the expert uh fees and between the two spouses of course lawyers fees are separate that to keep in mind when you go and see any lawyers is that the new non-muslim or foreigners divorce law um provides for so the procedure is divided in two parts in Dubai and in three parts in Abu Dhabi so the cost of the procedure and of each petition is usually charged separately by the lawyer in Dubai the cost of separation and divorce is much lower is around 2,000 Dam yeah um and it also is inclusive of all the different stages of divorce so another difference between Dubai and Abu Dhabi is that before Dubai courts uh the divorce is is is done at the first Hearing in Abu Dhabi takes usually two hearing because the first hearing is before the the case manager and only do once the case manager has um reviewed all the documents convince that everything is there then sends the the case to the judge for final judgment um and then in in uh in Dubai you'll have a petition you have to make separate petition as well for alimony and child custody and but you the Dubai still requires for you to go and see the family guidance committee to try and find a settlement we find this to not be very um useful to couples because if we ar point it's a formality is probably AIT um it probably probably helps The Bu courts with managing their case law to kind of time it when they can send more cases to the judge I think that case law is huge uh in Abu Dhabi is two hearings for divorce then divorce is declared and then it is very fast and then you can get directly into the two petition there is no attempt from the court to find aable settlement and it's they tend to like you cannot have um a postponement of the earing of the earing or or a reassessment that is longer than a week so the postponement of the heing is very quick is almost like a common law um type of uh uh system where the procedure is very condensed very condensed MH so it's better because you get it done you get it done quickly quickly for lawyers is a little bit more uh hectic yes because you have to quickly get things drafted out and uh yeah review documents and find any you know translation because Abu Dhabi is in jeal language Dubai although the law says that the that the procedure should be in dual language if both spouses are foreigners but we found that they tend to revert to Arabic if there are local lawyers and because you need you must have a local lawyer then the procedure is always and mostly directly in Arabic so if you are an expert and you're living in Dubai and you do need to go through a divorce procedure you must have a local lawyer because otherwise you will not understand much of what is happening and you want to understand what is happening cuz your input as a party to the lawyer in cases of family law it is pivotal to the possibility for your for yourself to be successful in your in your petitions our job is not to advise you if you get married or get divorced our job is to educate you and make you understand your rights within the marriage and within divorce so I would always advise and recommend everybody if you're getting into marriage understand your rights and obligations write a prenuptial agreement get understanding a little bit what are the consequences what would happen if there is children what are the financial obligations of disc discuss discuss with your future husband what are his financial principles how does he like to spend money how where does he like to invest what you have to speak about money with the person you're going to marry because that's one of the most common um source of arguments it's money and children's education so before you marry to somebody remember it's not bad to speak about money it's not bad you have to ask you should do that yes yes and for husband it's fair to ask a prapti because for them too is a risky it's risky to to get into marriage and it's better to not before and to be able to to decide okay what happen if we divorce right how our assets are going to be split after how many years this will happen after how many years that will happen so please please don't be shy speak to your part ners it's important to understand because if you don't agree on these basic principles it's going to your life is going to be very difficult and please try to understand that your life prior to marriage is when it is easier that things get tougher when you get married not easier so the marriage is the beginning of a very complex and um complex part of your life and if you're prepare for that part of your life and you've done your homework then that part then as everything else every other project in your life you be successful yes and don't forget to speak to your lawyer when you need have a question and you don't have the answer too because speaking to expert and being well informed is is such an important part of anything any project not just marriage even company information or a business or employment just understand what legally you need to um you need to do and what are your obligations do you have any advice for people getting divorced or people getting married I don't know I'm happily married so and I always say I've discussed very in very in a lot of details um um my economic principles with my husband before we got married uh we were very open about it we had all the discussions that we could have about money prior to getting married I have to say with my husband we married when we were adults I was 36 and my husband was at his I I was his second marriage so I think he was also more mature in terms both of choosing the right partner in life and being able to discuss subjects that um could usually consider a taboo and I'm a lawyer Ahmed and that is like how my brain works so I'm always worst case scenario and so for me it was natural thing to go into the details um so I guess you know wait to get married um at a time in your life where you know who you are we leave you with this amazing advice of clld we thank you so much for coming back to the show thank you for having me I love coming here we always have very very interesting discussion absolutely thank you very very much for listening to us and this is your dose from Monday legal see you next week