[Music] good morning I'm Ahmed Elnaggar and this is Monday legal my guest for today is a Swiss lawyer he is the head legal of Swiss group in the UAE and he is the president of Swiss Business Council my friend Michael Lane good morning morning thank you for having me thank you very much for coming today how is life fantastic see shortly before summer break eat break nice you having me here this morning catch up on Monday legal podcast thank you thank you very much for coming and I'm very happy that I'm hosting you today especially that we had uh we started our career in the UAE in the same place maybe not the same time but we had the the the the beginning of our career here in in in Dubai and in the UA at the same place but I would like to ask you to introduce yourself uh more by telling me where did you start with the legal uh studies and where did you start your legal journey in general I know you're coming from Switzerland but I would like you to introduce your legal journey to us okay I try to keep it short and sweet I started my legal career at law school at University of lern you know lern is very much the typical Swiss place in the center of Switzerland very mountainy Lakes you know the typical Switzerland as you would imagine it so rather small University but it helped of course also to grow like my career or start my career after Law School in lern I went to Zurich Zurich of course is the commercial center of Switzerland where I work for almost five years in a commercial law firm before then I came to the uee as you said we started this same Law Firm here in Dubai almost 8 years ago and here we are today sitting across from each other catching up very good thank you very much for uh mentioning this and uh it's it's also remarkable to say that Michael is one of the early members of Emirates legal Network and uh his support and bringing in knowledge and experience into the network was very remarkable and uh helpful for for M Eagle Network to grow thank you for that and I guess our connection even started a little bit before em legal Network where we were chatting all the time brainstorming and uh and asking each other legal questions and what did you do in that and what's your opinion about this new law and all these discussion was uh already happening between me and you before you we we joined em Lega Network both of us and then it expanded so much into into this so I'll I'll take the opportunity to ask you what do you think about about Emirates legal Network and do you actually find it a helpful platform I would say as you said you know as a lawyer it's always very important to be challenged you know to challenge each other right you need someone who can maybe bring in other views other position right of course we started that before the formal uh Emirates legal network of course the common starting point we had here in Dubai and I think Emir legal network is basically the formalization of that right where you provide a platform for the lawyers want to challenge each other want to exchange thoughts want to exchange opinions and Views because I think when you're a lawyer there not always black and white there's a lot of gray in between and it's nice when you have this platform to openly discuss points you know because of course it's like not talk about clients or specific like cases but nonetheless it it's like it's good to have this Challenge and also maybe bring the legal platform and the lawyers as such a bit more forward right because you know how it is even if you're in an office let's say you have a small offw fir right we don't have 10 15 20 lawyers of course they can do this exchange within the company but if you have an a smaller Law Firm a team of just a few maybe from paralal some loyers some Partners different levels right maybe as an associate you don't want to go to the partner for certain things you rather go to someone else you know a bit more objective same level you know and I think this is what you need as a lawyer the Emir legal network is basically just providing that platform right yes absolutely and and on top of that I mean this is really a a a very um knowledgeable platform the diversity of the lawyers there you exchange information exactly and Knowledge and Skills and experience with things that you have never worked with I I don't do criminal law for example never but when I have a question I'm I'm pretty sure that we get five answers and the thing is also like a client comes to you right maybe there's a question which is not your area of expertise nonetheless the EM legal Network you can pitch the question you get answers from the experts in the field it's not like a full answer like the whole legal opinion but nonetheless you get a certain understanding of a legal question which makes you then able to to give a client um relatively short term short notice still kind of substantive answer not just like GDP if you want to do it right or or Google or whatever platform you want to use I think that brings the legal Community together you know it's not about like competition because you know how it is amongst lawyers it's always a bit the competitiveness but you don't feel this in this network because we're all kind of partnering up to have the platform to exchange ideas opinions and that's important to have you know and honestly like I've never seen such a network for example in Switzerland my my home country right right and this kind like I think this is very much to buy in the UE you know you you have this Vision these new ideas again I guess you you have other colleagues you started like what we had before yeah and then you say like hey why not do this like basically a bit more formal right and also put the stamp on you know I think that that's what is the UAE you know you just go and try right because maybe I don't know in other jurisdiction it would not work but here it works you know and it also works because we have all different backgrounds yeah all the nationalities from around the world you know I come a bit with Swiss legal background you come with Egyptian yeah legal background you know so we all bring something to the table which you can profit from all the members of the network and I think that's very very important to have yes yes absolutely I'll tell you honestly um I um I did not come up with the idea just to be very clear and this is something but it's like it started because you have to exchange with the lawyers right exactly so again it's like you formalize what was already there before and of course there was something that was uh called the Dubai Legal Professional and I give the credit to a very smart lawyer called Ryan Mendoza I guess he was the one who started it and I'm not sure if it still exist or not but uh he he started it and he did this kind of setup but it was a little bit lighter and it was less lawyers it was not formalized I'm not sure how is how it now if it still exists but this is how it started but I will tell you honestly I was at that time uh also a member of Swiss Business Council and I was networking a lot and I was understood the value of the community so this idea from Ryan together with the other um membership that I had with the Swiss Business Council I understood like wow if I have a mix of both I can create something like really great and have it as a nonprofit really organized with the voting with a lot of uh a committee of experts who will come on board and create something that is valuable for the community and here we go you know three years down the line and it's amazing what we have right now that will take me to my next question to you you are also a member of Swiss Business Council just a regular member and then you you you take up the letter into becoming a president how does that work for you it's it's an amazing thing I see the bit like this when I came here to the Emirates almost 8 years ago you know when you come from abroad so what is your first point of contact right this a Swiss of course I go to the Swiss Business Council we don't have a club Swiss so not a like a social basically Gathering but the Business Council you know so I got engaged with the Business Council then of course with our common employer at the time who was also very much engaged already in the board right yeah you kind of become part of the team right and I see it a bit like giving something back because it's like it's the same with Emirates legal Network you know you become part you you have benefits you you you participate you you have like yeah you have benefits you want to give something back you know it's more about this and then I would always say it's about to be at the right time at the right place with the right people around it's the same for you for the the legal Network it's like you had this good group of people who said let's just started you know and this The Business Council is the same because my pre my predecessor was 22 years yes the President right so rather big shoes to F but nonetheless it's like laws change Also let's say the the the regulatory framework for nonprofits like a business Council has changed you know because you know how it is nonprofits are per se a red flag right so now you see like new laws new rules have been implemented by Dubai chamber you have limited terms only so you cannot be 20 years in the board anymore and of course after 22 years like he built the council Peter right yeah but it's like okay now I'm it's time to hand over because the Law changes are maybe not up to date anymore I don't have the time let's give like younger people the chance to step up you know and then again it's about having the right people around you because again you don't get paid to do the job in your in legal Network Association right so you put a lot of hours in voluntary hours but you only do that if you think like this is the right thing to do it's not about money it's it's it's not about thing but you say like okay this is my little baby because I'm part of the founders yeah and I want to bring this to the next step right and you know how it is Dubai is like it's a competition right so if you do an event anyone coming to that event could be at 5 events at the same time you know so it's it's about like what do you bring to the table which other associations other groups cannot bring to the table right and what you bring with the with the legal network is basically like you bring a platform for lawyers you know it's not about accountant it's it's not about whatever it's about the lawyers it's basically professional association yes but it's a private Association which makes it nice SS Business Council is the same we have basically the CH the SS chamber here in the Emirates but we don't get money from the government right so it's like you leave or we live exactly maybe have a sponsorship membership fees right but in order to attract members you need to provide something interesting for the members right it's always evaluating where do you want to go what do you want to do right and for the S Business Council is the same you know it's like for example this year for the first time ever we did the first Swiss the economic for in Burn right so the swis Business Council together with the UAE Ministry of economy and the UAE Embassy in Burn we had the first economic for so from UAE side it was his Excellency Dr sayi Who was on stage and from thewis side he was the state Secretary of economy on stage right and we as the Business Council had our logo there right wow and this is again it's like we bring this for our members it's a platform because the legal network is the same it's a platform you bring people together if it's a business Council professional association and I think in the end you live with the members of course the board you have the flag and you go and give a good example but in the end you only are as an association what the members bring to the table and you see you have this podcast we we have the the the WhatsApp group for exchanges and questions we have different basically platforms and ways how we can interact you have events where we have Gatherings together if it's an ifar or whatever you know but again why do the members come to ifar because we have so many e you know how it is yes you know and I always say like the quality in the end is about like what you bring to the table you know and I think here we we're exactly the same you know it's like we put let like basically our efforts in there's no monetary reward but it's kind of our baby yeah right it's it's something that builds up and honestly I I will tell you one one thing that I find it very valuable that I'm personally benefiting from it maybe not money but or or fees or clients or whatever it's just my network is becoming really solid I can anytime call a lawyer whenever I need something and I will find the right information the right contact if I need a lawyer in the Bahamas who specialized in Family Law at 6 p.m. on Saturday I will find it because of my network it network is like you go to an event you exchange a business card tomorrow the week after you don't care but maybe in three months like they remember they I met the guy right and in the end you need to meet 10 15 people to find the one right person but if you don't 100 sometimes you know where I'm I get you yeah yeah very interesting um one thing I wanted to ask you the Swiss community in the UA is quite big and and it it is remarkable every now and then you realize that the founder of one of the UAE based companies or the managing partner of one of the even International Company a Swiss person and there's a lot of Swiss people living here in the UAE uh what kind of or what's let's say what's the most common uh legal work that you do for Swiss people since you are uh pretty much involved with with the community I would say you know as a lawyer of course he like I know both I mean no it's I have knowledge let's call it I don't say I know everything but have a knowledge of the Swiss law and the UE law yeah so of course you might have a multinational working out of Switzerland who needs support here and of course their legal department is happy if they have a counterpart here who knows both ways right or then of course you go into family law you have a divorce case right of course it's the local um attorney local lawyer who takes care in court but nonetheless he needs guidance if they want to have let's say a divorce convention agreement on the Swiss law because they're both Swiss right so it's kind of like we all have our Niche here right you come with the Egyptian backpack I come with the Swiss backpack and then like when it's an individual it's maybe a bit more family law it's inheritance maybe marriage it's it's about rather these things and they have the big multinationals who have crossborder implication who are happy if they have someone who can knows a bit where they're coming from and knows the place here right so I would say the the the Swiss Community as such is like it's a variety right it's the whole society you have the big multinationals you have anme maybe who who intends to come here right or you have the individuals the family the parents who need some legal advice or if it's about pension you know because you still want to have Pension funds in Switzerland what you do how you can cash them when you leave abroad so they like kind of like first of all if someone speaks the same language yes you know how that works right yes and it's like when you say a they understand a and you do a right because you have a certain understanding right or they come on time just the yes no and it's like I would say this is a bit thing and when you look at now I just had a a chat with our ambass a few days ago currently it's like almost every day a Swiss person is moving from Switzerland to the U right so it's it's quite impressive when you see what's happening right and then it's also when you look just not the numbers from 2022 Switzerland was number four in terms of FDI so forign forign direct investments into the emirat of of Dubai right and Switzerland is is country right and they always say like like there's is a deep connection between the U and Switzerland right because I always say it's like we're like the small countries surrounded by the big prods right so when you look at Switzerland you have Germany Italy France you know the big economic houses right I always refer to the U as the Switzerland of the Middle East that's that's my personal opinion and it's like a bit when you see now what's also happening in the U of course without the Big Brother next door that they have a bit I would say the same approach as Switzerland Switzerland you have a few things you're very good at watchmaking financial sector until very recently at least right and due does the same they say like we don't need to be good in all the sectors in the industry we want to be good in certain sectors right this is a bit like where you say I may be the small player but I I want to be the expert in the lighthouse in certain sectors right and I think even this understanding sometimes is kind of like reflected when you when you engage also with the moralities here because you know you come a bit from the same background right the same values the same ideas that's the the targets or are the same kind yeah so how you see uh Saudi and the UAE I was asked this question a few a few weeks back and uh it it came this question came to me as like do you see Saudia as a threat to the UAE or to development or attracting more foreign direct investment uh from the UAE I see I I I see the opposite I see actually that the more strong uh neighbors um the number one um country or uh that that will benefit is the UA so if Qatar is growing Saudi is growing Egypt is growing uh Oman is growing this will only push the UAE up it will not take from the UA anything because the exchange of of benefits is going to grow uh I understand that Saudi is doing F fantastic work and doing tremendous uh efforts right now spending so much to to to speed up the development and change the legislations and make it more attractive and more uh investor friendly and and all of this um but I don't see it going out of the UAE because I I I see it a bit the same way I say like healthy competition is good you know even when you look into the Emirates right you have basically two Financial Centers right on on a relatively small scale yes right but nonetheless a healthy competition is good you know because you need to push yourself to innovate to change to adapt and if you're just the only one out there you can basically do whatever you want right and I always say it's like when you look at the UAE and Saudi I would say the big difference of course is like the UAE is a hub while Saudi is its own retail market right just from the size of population or whatever so it's like you have a different B baby kind ta you C before and that's why I said healthy competition is good because in the end it brings the region up because what we have seen when we went to Switzerland when you in Europe and you talk to the commoners right when you talk about the UE it's about tax evasion Russians and black money right so it's it's a lot also my job as the president here from the chamber is to create awareness you know and it's like you know how it is it's like we unfortunately we have to war in Israel and ca for Europe the Middle East is at War but when you look on the map Jerusalem and Dubai are as far as apart as basically Jerusalem and Ro yeah you know so when you look at it it doesn't make sense right but of course all this reflects right and I would say like the more good news are coming out from the region if Kar is grow or Saudi has big project if it's the line it's naom it's changes in the legislation or or the U it lifts up the region as such right everyone basically in the region is profiting Right honestly what you're saying is touching a very important um point because this is why I created uh Mond legal I'll be very honest there's so many misconceptions ex and there's so many wrong information uh out there I wanted lawyers from the world to say the things I want to say I make one example you know it's like of course we were on the great list here right so that means all the the financial action task force recommendation became obligation for us right to get off the list you need to fully comply yes right and then I in very simple term the commercial register in Zurich has no clue who the shareholder is of a company private Company Limited by shares registered in that commercial register true right here you basically need to get give the shoe size of the ubo to open the company you know a bit what I mean you know and it's like we have hard push when you look at the last two to five years there was tremendous new legislation tremendous effort from the government from us yes as the Private Industry if you're non Financial business partner Law Firm if you're a bank and they say we're in adjm right you know how it is the AML return every year for our Law Firm is the same as the bank next door yes right just to to give a bit background right and when you do an onboard in kyc of your client it's a whole different level than what our colleagues in Europe do you know I know I have been there have done it right but this what you're talking about right now no one knows honestly they they all I mean especially outside of the UA if you go to Europe or to us they think like oh no no no we are doing a wild west yeah yeah it's a wild west you can to and do whatever you want but that's not reality exactly it's not it's not and I always say it's always the same in Switzerland it it's it's it's about the Legacy we need to clean up the Legacy you know but Switzerland was the same when you look at the Swiss banks for example I mean there was a time you know when they also took money I mean it's an open secret right you know and for the U is the same you know and I would say like one part is like what we do today and it's how we treat the Legacy right but today as you said rightly it's it's not the wild west anymore you know and again it's like when I talk to my Swiss colleagues here they know the upo you know in a lot of jurisdiction in Europe switzland until very recently had bare shapes yes you know yeah yeah just as a bit as an example you know and this is what I said before about creating awareness you know and this is a bit our job right this is maybe this tool this is maybe our when we out when when we're out and basically this is our home now right so we are the ambassadors also for the UE you know yes yes I'll take you to that because you have been very active going to Switzerland with uh some public U organizations or associations here to speak about the UA or to promote the business between the two countries can you tell me uh a little bit about these events so it's it's like we we basically in different like levels I would say right the Swiss Business Council in the Swiss Tower here in in dmcc so dmcc is basically our home or like home Authority right we have a Dubai chamber license but basically the branch in the MCC in the Swiss Tower right so we got approached by the MCC and say like hey you want to do a road show to Switzerland you know because when you talk about commodity trading Geneva is still a big player right and of course it's not about taking them the companies away but it's basically to show them them like hey U might be a nice option to expand or like to think about it right because I always say from a swis perspective is like when you talk about of course we have the big one at nly ABB UBS but Switzerland also has a big like level right and these are is innovation right and when you talk about Swiss if they would expand abroad it would be maybe Germany Italy or France right this is just a bit appetite and it's like nice to say like hey why not the U right so one we got approach by dmcc from the Swiss Business Council so we went there last year for one roacher event in Geneva and one in Zurich you know it's about creating awareness you know and since in Switzerland they don't basically have an MR Business Council we play a bit both sides right so we're in contact with the U Embassy in the Consulate in Switzerland and with our Embassy here so we're like playing a both double the role and then we got we were also in contact with the embassy of course again where when the the outbound delegation with Minister his excc drudi went to Switzerland for a full week right they of course had political meetings and then it was one day should be economic exchange so bring the UA companies and the S companies together and see a bit in Industry sectors how can we work together is there an opportunity you know how how can we do that right and there again it was the embassy who approached us to be part of it because they have seen what we did for dmcc right and now since of course we have now a bit this track record we also got approached Now by other entities and government departments here in the UA who are interested in like hey how can we team up you know because you know how it is it's again it's like what can we bring to the table you know so also this year we we had adjm had the B2B Road Show so they didn't have events but we supported them to like hey how can we bring people to the table which maybe you don't have the access but I can bring you access to it you know because in the end it's like when when you look at I always call it like team Switzerland here in the U we have the embassy we have the consulate which is the Hub basically Swiss Global Enterprise which is basically the government entity to to promote export from Switzerland and you have the Business Council right Embassy Poli iCal instance the H to bring them here once they're here they should become my members again Switzerland we cannot compete with mcham or with the British Chamber of Commerce but nonetheless you can still play the game right and I always say UA in Switzerland you have from Dubai you have two flights a day to zerich you have two flights a day to Geneva and now new as of August 2nd fly Dubai flying to bsel so that means Emirates group is flying to all the airports in Switzerland you know and that says a lot you know and I think like our job is we we Ambassador for both countries right we chose the uee as our home so we are the ambassadors of the UE back home yeah and the home country with the ambassadors here because our ambassador always tells us you Swiss business Community you are the actual ambassadors I have the title but you are representing what Switzerland can bring to the table you know hope that answers your question very clear and it explains a lot as well so aside from your uh let's say political uh role ambassadorial ambassadorial role with the swis Business Council and all these organizations and government and so on you're also advising individuals and private clients who are living in the UAE especially from Switzerland what what sort of work that you mainly get involved in or what example of of what you I would say you know the individuals it's mostly about let's call it family law inheritance issue what I've seen is like there's still it's about creating awareness right because there's still all these ghost ghosts around this an Arabic country and the charia law is applicable etc etc right but what you've seen the changes which have been done in the last years started at the IFC wheel a couple of years ago almost what is it almost 10 years ago 10 years ago that was that was basically the First Step yes to give non-muslim an option to opt out right and then he came of course Dubai courts will came in and of course Abu Dhabi we came in right and then last year we have seen it was last year when they changed the family law here right on federal level yeah and a lot of people don't know that you know because it's still like oh it's an it's a Muslim country it's like you know it's about creating awareness and people still come to me today I need the DFC wi it's like okay stop you know full transparency the law is as follows now if you don't have a thec and then I always say like you need to assess based on the law if you still really need a will you can say I still want to have a will because I give instruction to to a judge which is a bit easier to follow than just let's say follow the law but nonetheless you see that like people once they know how the law of the land is they get more relaxed because they can see that the U is really pushing towards International let's say investors and people to actually move here because you know how it is it's like if you choose and more and more people do that the UAE as your home you you you need to have the the let's say the right legal framework which is the right legal framework for you you say like I feel home here right and when you see a lot of like inheritance met family law it's always like I say like when I do events it's like look you always need to think of the worst case you know be ready the worst case you know and like even when you talk about divorce today it's about child custody you close very close to what we know from Europe from switzland right and I still think this is also stuff we as lawyers still need to do of course you can read GF news and you have all the articles but it's something else when a lawyer tells you that right and I see there's still like a lot of not knowing around because maybe you have lived here for 10 years and you still somehow in old school and then if you just move here you still have the wrong perception right of the region or the U so what we see is like when I advise individual clients is of course mostly let's say fam law inheritance because they just want to be set up here in a proper way right then of course like you know how it is it's like we don't have international treaties with regard to inheritance that the hag convention we didn't sign right so it's always like how do you deal with the crossb implication right I do the FC will but can I put my Assets in Switzerland in you know how it is it's like now people coming here it's not just to have everything here in Dubai right and I think that's where we play the role again because we know I know my home country jurisdiction you know how it works back at home that's why they come to you yeah to you right and I think this is the big topic when we talk about individual clients of course when you when you bring the corporate world corporate tax now of course is is the big topic right how this has an impact right and again it's like you have been longer here in the emat than me and we have seen it with V8 maybe today not everything is clear right but what what advice do you give to clients you should say like whatever you do it needs to be reasonable if you think today you're smarter than the UA government you're on the wrong track right you know how it is you know and this is a bit advice when you see like if in five three years you can say I took a decision based on ABCD that's reasonable that's okay you know yeah yeah I I completely agree with you a few years back limited liability companies with two three shareholders never had an audited report for 10 years they just distribute profits among them there was shareholder uh withdrawals from the from from the company for personal reasons and together they sit down and settle it and that's why there were a lot of cases happening uh in in court and with complex but that's what I say you know cor attacks yeah I always say you have basically two sides of the coin one is of course you bring in revenue for the government and the other side is the government for the first time knows what all those companies in the U are actually doing yes it's it's again it's a compliance you know because you need to file what you actually do with your company you know if you have a fish trading license in der then you better do fish trading you know and I think all this together it's the whole combo which we started talking about right this brings the UE to the next level compliance point of view how the International Community is looking at the UE of course it's it's that you have a certain tax level from a from a fiscal point of view but it's also it brings Clarity and a certain compliance into the system because as you said if you're in dmcc you always had to submit an audit report but the mainland company next door still should should but you know yeah in the law they should but there's no obligation to actually file returns and that's why then you see it's like if you're in a or in fuera it's different than if you're in abui or Dubai right yeah but you're certified compliance officer with the fs and with the dfsa um what is the major change that you have seen in the practice not not in DFC companies because I understand this as a financial center most of the companies registered there are very compliant or at least they have to because they can't escape no I always make one example Bank Miro s bank got recently fined $3.5 million us right yeah and that was not because they had a breach but the regulator said the processes the manuals we have in place are not sufficient you know so they did not on board the crook or whatever you know because that's clear but they said whatever you have in place is not sufficient yes and I think this is is is the push which is done here you know I'm sure you had audits yourself you know they want to see that you do the proper way and what is the proper way you do a proper kyc the CDD so custom due diligence right the starting point is a board resolution of your company where you say what is the risk we see and what we do right and then basically on the customer due diligence you you measure them in accordance with your risk know if you say like all the Germans are high risk because I don't have an issue with the German tax authorities it's your business decision yeah right it's a business risk assessment process that you have to do and you have to keep and you have to rec what you now see is like more and more the regulator the authorities they want to see that you do your job right they want to see how do you run your company so it's not just you can do whatever you want they want to see that you know what's going on in your company right and this is is again it all falls back we become compliant and I always say like this is the new normal this is the new world standard yeah right yeah yeah I've seen last year um and and actually still ongoing Ministry of economy have been finding a lot of exactly exactly dnfbps whether they are reate Brokers or gold Traders or whatever again not just not not because they did something wrong or not or let's say not because they catch exactly money laundry or certain transaction just because are you really uh having your the process and procedures house and order you have the documents right I know companies who have CSP licenses for examply example and they're not doing any CSP I know a lot of people who have diamond and gold trading activity but they're not doing any of that or the the company have been uh just uh not not not in business for the last two years but I say this also of course is connected to basically the old Visa regime right either you're employed or you have a company right so as in the old days you have a lot of people called the company face of the Visa of course now with the option of all the Visas real estate investor visa investment Visa retirement all those things of course like and now with corporate tax anyway non-operational compan is an issue yes you know because questions will come you know and rightfully you know so I say like it's all connected we have seen it it started with ESR regulation right where we're done with with the letter box company sending invoices out because now we need to show easy who from where does which job yeah it's very easy you know it makes sense like why should you send out an invoice for some consultancy you know management consultany is the typical example it's everything in offering yes you know you know how it is right yeah even the description and the in the in the in the book what is management consultancy when I read it I try to understand what does it exactly mean historically that was one of the activities you could have right so I say like I see now a bit is like it's the cleanup now right so it's like as a as a jurisdiction as a single company now it's time to get your books you know to keep it as simple as possible right yeah yeah yeah you have a lot of European clients right yeah um what is the or or I don't know if you if you remember now or not I I'm asking you on the spot but what is the most misconception about the UAE and the way they come to do business because for example in in um in my case I have a lot of clients from Egypt and uh and um when they come to me and say um I would like to do a general Trading Company and I would like to give legal consultancy and I would like to have um a showroom for cars and I would like all of this to happen uh in one license and I don't need an office um or or a location for now I just want cheap as possible solu possible no office no location I just want the company for now that's one of the very major misconceptions that comes because in in in other jurisdictions it's possible to put your home address as the uh address for the company and mixing different type of uh activities I fully agree because in in Switzerland for example if you establish a company you don't choose your activity out of a given list right you basically Define the purpose of the company yourself yeah right so you can say I want to do shoe trading and I want to be able to own property in the country and abroad and I don't know what course not the regulated one but nonetheless you know and then here it's like as you know it's like we have 45 different free zones seven Emirates right they all have their own that's activity list yeah right so it's like you maybe cannot sit in the FC because you want to have the nice office and do tradeing which is not possible right so it's kind of like here you you can really have tailor made solutions but the difference between here and other jurisdiction is is not one set of rules right and then as you said it's like I would say the clients coming today and they have a bit of knowledge about the UI they know it's not the wild west anymore yeah you know because if a client comes to you and you say like for kyc purpose I want to have passport a utility bill a bank reference letter and I want to see your six months bank statement from your private account because you want to open investment companies so want to see you have the funds for the Investment Company there's no backlash because they know this is what's coming yeah you know of course you have the ones I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend or I read somewhere blog exact americ yeah you can do rock ICC company and can you know 5 10 years ago we moved on right but but but really this changed worldwide it was not only the UAE this abilities and whole system and off it's a new normal I it's a new normal ESR is not just here it's the BBI the cman it's it's the same everywhere that's what I mean is like we we get your books in our books in order yeah to get to the new Norm that's it you know and you know it's like the friend of a friend of a friend of a friend right and you know how it is even corporate tax now there still a lot of misconception out I'm in a free zone I don't pay taxes yes well maybe not right you know you know exactly it depends yeah as a lawyer of course it depends but you know what I mean it's still like yeah because you know and you know how it is in the large state of 50 years no taxes etc etc you know of course you know how it is right so it's like under certain conditions it's still the case but maybe not so I would say like clients coming today who have at least the minimal knowledge of the UE and are interested in setting up in the UE they know it's not the wild west anymore people who hear from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend who maybe came 10 years ago they need a bit more education right on how it's working yes but I would say I would really say like people were really want want to move business here and have a certain minimal interest they know what's happening here the issue is more like when you have let's say bit more the ignorant people with maybe I would not say let's say dubious intentions right yeah you know these these guys are the issue right and you also know how it is it's like when you say to to to potential client my risk you above my risk appetite I don't want to on board you right I'm sure 5 10 days later he went to someone next door will take and they did it right yeah no problem with me go ahead no but you know what I mean but this is exactly the game that's what I said it's like it's like everyone comes to Dubai right so it's kind of like you can also be picky of who you want and who you don't want right yeah honestly this what you what you're explaining right now have happened to me several times I know I know during I'm sure it happened to you as well that someone come to me and say this is how I want to run my business and I say I'm sorry that's not it's my RK appetite exactly the nice polite way to say no and uh and and a few weeks down the line or month down the line we realized that they were accepted by The Authority they were accepted by another consultant and so on but still I'm not upset that we lose these clients or we don't take them on and but why because you also have an obligation towards your clients absolutely because you do the job they know how you do your job so they trust you do the job right because if you you only need one rotten egg in your basket right you you're done yeah you know and and I I want to say this to our colleagues as well who are in the dnfb or or in the CSP business it's not bad that you were not so compliant before it's not bad that you were not up to Legacy it's about the Legacy manage this exactly check it get a compliance uh expert create a gap analysis understand what is the problem and how to fix it maybe invest a little bit into resources and and changes and and uh develop no but I say like the big topic of course for the nfpp is you need to have an external audit yes who checks on your compliance right of course it's a bit tricky because you don't want to open your books based to your competitor you know that's basically what's happening right but nonetheless this can be also a good way to to give a third party like look this is what I have in place right yeah tell me how I'm doing yeah you know because it's like it's always the thing is like a uh what is it being compliant this is cheaper than non-compliance no the end you know what I mean it's like you've seen you said it before the fines which went out not just for the banks for all the dfbp sector have increased dramatically you know and you know how it is we all get the questionnaires you know and the Thematic reviews and whatever sometimes you like I just finished the questionnaire and why is the next one in my email right you know how it is right and then when you're in the 80 gem you get the invites for a session yeah a nice invite in the first line and then the last line it's mandatory right you know but this is how we do it you know and I would say what they do here right is like when you go on the Central Bank homepage you have guidance for all the dfpp sectors so if you're a CSP you have I don't know 800 Pages just for you yeah you don't need to reinvent the wi you know so it's like pretty much out there right sometimes it's almost too much if you know it's like it's good and bad exactly it's good because it really puts the level up for everybody it's bad because a lot of people will be out of the business very soon yeah that's no but you know how it is it's the same like template is per se a good thing yeah but you don't need to think anymore you know you know a template for any whatever resolution is good but you don't need to put the thoughts in right or it's copy paste you know on the same topic on the same topic I have to ask you um your opinion and you don't have to answer this question if you don't want to um how transparent or how more transparent do you think we are getting not we as the UAE only I'm saying even worldwide in the same business how transparent how more transparent are we getting um the thing is like now what's happening is like you bring more and more player into the game right before it was just a bank if the bank does the transfer you was a law firm I don't care you know but now basically you have bit the blame game right because if you sit in a meeting with the client together with the banker and the banker reports something suspicious and you have not done the same report there might be a question coming up you know what I mean so it's kind of like you have more players in the whole process which have obligations now right it it's it's when you do a real estate transaction the real estate agent he needs to check if the funds are there where the funds are coming from so you have the background it's not just the bank who does the transfer you know so I say like and bringing more and more in you automatically have more transparency because it's kind of like you don't want to be the one who has not filed the report and the other guy who was also in the meeting as an example filed it and he made reference to this meeting so it's kind of I I'll tell you this what what you what you say right now is super important because real estate business is a huge yeah um let's say high risk very much high risk for two reasons it's it's a very vulnerable industry to to to bad behavior let's put it in a nice way and there's not money there's not much investment into the the the the people work in the industry to be educated enough yeah because you know how it is it's like if you're in your offer you have a compliance office it's not enough because if the the Frontline person you know does not report he does not even have a clue right so in in real estate they also have M they need to have one but in order that this person even gets the internal report Brokers have to go back the broker needs to have a certain understanding what is the red flag you know you know it's not like they need to make the assessment but they need to say hey here here are the facts this is what happen let's have a check you know let's have a check and this is the thing right it's not just the compliance officer who is in charge of all that yeah yeah you know what you mentioned right now is very important because real estate y business is one of the most vulnerable to uh Financial crime and I see also that there is a big gap Gap in the uh awareness and the knowledge for the stakeholders in in this business U investors are coming from everywhere in the world and from every background and what real estate brokers or what real estate developers have been doing for the last 50 years in the UAE was not the same that they are requested to do for the last couple of years and there was not M much due diligence happening and not much awareness for these guys but I would say it's what I said before you know it's like just because you put the laws in place does not mean it's done the same day yeah there's some catch up to do that's what I meant before it's like if it's an industry if it's the country if it's us we have to catch up to do you know and this does not happen from yesterday to tomorrow and you know how it is it needs to start in in a change of understanding of maybe values in your company at management level right and then basically it trickles down but you need to have the management who's also ultimately liable for what the compan is doing they need to be aware of what the risks are right because if the real estate broker brings in let's say a dubious business let's call it like this the ultimate responsible for it is the board yeah you know and I think it's like the the creating awareness needs to start at the top you know because only when the top is really living basic the new standards the new values the new procedures only then you can actually implement it you know and I say like we're maybe not there yet but the push is there because you see once you go out and see this company got a fine of ABCD and again it's not because they had a dubious case because they went in and see whatever we have in place is not enough yeah and in the end you know how it is like human beings when it's about the wallet that it's it's a good push why you should change some procedures right and they would say like this is not the uee this is the whole world who has the same issue just because you put the law in place does not mean it's LIF out there right and then of course you have certain industries I would say like lawyers or maybe Auditors they're just from their own background are a bit more prone to to implement this then you have maybe a real estate broker or or like they're more like on the business on the actual operation side which like compliance is more like an administrative hassle on top right which maybe needs a bit more to be implemented I would say you see what the government is doing and of course it's also big business for lawyers because as a lawyer you can go out or as a compliance officer you can say I offer your team your real estate developing company trainings you know this can also be an opportunity for us as lawyers to be if you have a lawyer SL compliance background to go out and say like hey I can offer you the service because you know nowadays compliance officer are a rare species everyone needs compliance offic right you know how it is you know yeah and then it's like if you have a different size of a company you maybe can also not afford to have like fullblown compliance office because you know an m is not the compliance office right different role exactly yeah so if you need to have an M as a designated nonfinancial this is just a guy who reports yeah you know but the training on paper should be done by this person but I don't know if they always have the background you know a bit how it is so I see like these changes are also big opportunity for us to to to jump into that you know yeah and help the industry as a certified from DF thec and and FSA and fsra do you see a lot of difference when you are doing your compliance roles for a financial regulated entity and a nonfinancial I I would say you know it's like atgm as an example right it's the same return if you're a law firm or a bank it's the same so it's literally the same yeah right there's no difference yeah that says it all right so that means your compliance knowledge your procedures your manuals they need to be the same yeah you know that's the level it was not the same before but now again this of course is also like we have let's say that's what we have a bit fragmented let's call it framework here in the U right so adgm has a different level than maybe Asma not tment whatever just a fact just an example you know you know how it is to be a CSP GM you need to go through a rigorous process yes it's full compliance on you and you're checked up and down and L right if you want to be a CSP in dmcc or or where else there's no such thing yeah yet maybe yet you know but this is a bit the thing is like here we have different regulatory Frameworks right because adgm as a dnfb your AML goes to the financial regulat yeah so you semi- regulate of course in the MCC you go to the ministry of economy but the approach is different I don't say worse or or better or whatever not judgment it's different right and I would say also the understanding is different from let's call it Authority side right because of course if you have a regulat financial regulator showing up at your office doing a check on your compliance procedure it's a different thing than as if the MCC would come yeah you know because what we see in the industry is of course the same in the government you know you have different level of Competency right of course financial sector these are the the tough guys and let's say for for the non Financial zones it's a different setup yeah there not yeah I don't say better or worse it also doesn't need everyone needs to be basically checked as a bank actually it's a fun part because you realize as a CSP or as a lawyer uh doing business all across the UAE you be regulated literally regulated and monitored by DFC adgm Russell hea the ministry Ministry of economy sometimes the MCC compli but then what do you do you take the call standard and apply it apply across board yeah that's exactly that's the only thing you can do you know which one in your opinion is gold standard for now I would say 80 g 80 g yeah is the top one yeah yeah I'm not paid no but you you know a bit how it is you know a bit how it is but again this is like this is how we are today this has historically grown right and 45 different free zones or 45 different Gardens and everyone has a garden make sure that his garden is a bit different than the garden next door this is just how it is right and now come with a unilateral overall concept over all that of course it needs take time to be implemented you know so I don't say it's bad or good it just needs time you know and again this what I said before with v and corporate tax is like if you a real estate broker and you can show that with the best of your knowledge you you try and do it it's a different statement from you than to say oh I didn't do it you know and if your compliance manual like for for your staff has three page then I don't need to tell you that's maybe not enough you know yeah yeah I I completely agree with you the problems when with compliance is not actually that something wrong happened the problem with the fines of of non being non-compliant is doing nothing about it because and because you don't exactly because you don't have the procedures in place and you know it's like when you look for example the ministry of economy the first questionaires that came demo do you have a policy in place take yes now do you have the policy in place take yes please upload yeah yeah yeah different you know absolutely this will take me to uh another question and again feel free not to answer um do you think income tax is coming for individuals for individuals personal income tax I don't think so you don't think so you know the thing about this is like in order to have a corporate tax to have teeth you need to have the B on the individual side tax right yeah so for example if you take money out is it hidden dividend payment whatever as an example right so you need to have a bit this but we will see how corporate tax will be implemented here you know I don't think that on midterm personal income tax is coming but again maybe there's International pressure who knows what's happening in the future right what do you think I think it's coming but as you said not on the not on the mid not on the short term no I'm I'm thinking in in about 10 years 7 to 10 years that it it it will come because something I have to support this huge infrastructure yeah it's and I I don't think orer tax alone will be able to to to cover that because the tremendous amount of cost that is happening and the tremendous expansion the do is do with taxes it's it's always the thing it's like like if you pay taxes that's not a bad thing and you see where the money is going it's not an issue yeah yeah yeah if you think as a taxpayer I pay and disappears that's an issue you know so that's why I say like tax is per se not bad we will see what happens with corporate tax will the corporate tax be put into the system to help business grow to expand to to I don't know build the business in infrastructure you know then you can see as a as an owner if I pay corporate tax it goes into something benefiting let's say the UA ecosystem right and if you need to do that it's not an issue you know yeah if you get something back exactly it's always about the tax but then of course you have let's say other also European countries where people say I'm dumb because I PID taxes like crazy but I don't feel like I get something in turn it's not bad not judgment but this is the perception of people you know that that's one of the most common things that I hear for newcomers especially the the the foreign direct investment kind of entrepreneurs who come and put uh put put put a subsidiary or a start a business here or just come for uh for for uh residency based on the golden visa and so on is that they just feel like I pay so much taxes um I don't need to be there and uh I don't feel it exactly I want to come here I don't pay so big taxes even the corporate taxes is a very competitive % amazing 9% is not a problem and the infrastructure is really amazing and what they get back is is uh maybe not no what you get back is safety yeah a clean City yeah there's not one pot hole in the highway toi there's not one one hole Yeah it's perfect Street you know like even when you see we had the big floodings within a week more or less yeah it was remarkable in most of the city it was cleared right I was lucky I was not here lucky you no but you know bit what I mean this is what when you see this is what what the U provides yeah you know and they always say it's like coming back to perception you know it's like it's an Arabic country you know and then of course do you need to wear the B no you don't and then they always say like again if you take du by Metro there's one wagon just for women and kids not seen that in any public transport in Europe as an example I haven't seen it also you have half the Ministers of this country are female you have female ambassadors all over the world you know and it's it's again it's about the perception of being part here you know even as a woman you you there not you know this is it you know and it's like the whole what you get back that's what's important and even if you have personal income tax of course some people say like it's not for me I move we have seen it with v but everyone said with the introduction of V the big move out will happen no it did not happen because what you get in return is still outweighing of the 5% yeah yeah 100% you know yeah yeah no no the any body who's telling me that and and I've said this for years anybody who telling me that the people are here because a UAE is a tax-free place I tell them sorry think again because that's not the reason I'm here I I always say like that's maybe nice at all yeah you cannot deny it kind of of course it's appealing but that's not the main reason exactly exactly yeah it's it's not and I always say like look you can go Dubai International Airport you have a direct fight to New Zealand and you have a direct right to La the United States yes yeah true so it's again it's the infrastructure here so it's obviously that you love the UAE and this is a very interesting I I I always say the same there's no perfect place in the world you know let's agree on that yeah yeah it's going to be boring if it's if there's one perfect few things are good here few things are like you know you have headaches too here it's not about this of course in the end it's about what you make out of being here you know you can be grumpy complain about it or you just say look you know I make the best out of it make out of it yeah yeah do you love your job as a lawyer you know like why do did you become a lawyer that's a big question for me yeah oh my God I think I knew I would be a lawyer when I was like 10 years old okay I was wow my dad was like my uh he was a lawyer he is a lawyer and and he was my hero I felt like this guy is is better 10 times than Superman you know it's like uh he's my hero and everything and and uh I learned from him uh a lot I was maybe 10 years old in the in the law firm so I enjoyed so much understanding and talking like them and dressing like them and and and so on so forth so I knew it from the beginning so I even I think I started lawyering when I was in high school okay so I don't think I um I I I thought of any other profession two calling for True call yes I was drawn into it from the very beginning and um what what what I didn't realize that I thought I like courts a lot and I thought uh pleading in court or doing the show exactly right yes I I I felt that courts is my thing and and after two months in court I went to my dad and I told him like listen if you want this relationship to continue in a nice way I'm not going to go to court again and he was super nice he was understanding and he told me listen that if that's not your place no problem out my door because that's what I do and this helped me a lot to find my place and here in the E because of that it's got a nice push yes yeah so I told my story what's your story how I became lawyer how you became a lawyer what what drone you want have the honest answer you can give me both I'll edit the honest the honest answer is I was not good in math so an NBA was is not really thing to go for right if you're not good in math all the technical jobs are basically you know I think a lot of lawyers will connect to that and then the languages was also not so really my thing so it's kind like okay what is a proper solid base where you can still grow okay you go forer you know because I mean you you have a lot of journalists who studied law you have them everywhere because it's still a good base even if you don't go to court you have a solid base let's say like the tools to go through life yeah but to be honest I mean at that age my dad was an engineer my mom was a nurse so I was not in a legal let's call it environment and it's just because you you're young so kind of okay why not you know lawyer Banker but then again still say like now days you you're not sa in stone you know so so you you can I always say like for example why did I go in compliance here I'm eight years now here in the emats if I ever go back to Switzerland like a swis law firm is not really interested in me anymore because you have been out for too long you know look at the changes in the legal landscape even here I mean it's hard to to catch up right so like what can you add on to to your lawyer backpack and compliance is a nice thing you know because compliance is getting bigger and bigger all around the world and it's like not really connected to any jurisdiction why may be law if you want to go to to the us tomorrow I'm a civil law lawyer so you have to start from scratch you know but if you come with a compliance plus lawyer background you might be interesting again you know and this is what I say it's also about the the EM legal Network it's again as a lawyer you need to push yourself you're never done with educating yourself take trainings push yourself you know it's like we did law school and you took the bar but it's not it you know what I mean you became thefc will you became thefc will drops me you did this maybe you did compliance I don't know it's a NeverEnding train right one one last question for you what do you advise Swiss lawyers who want to come and work in the UA so that's very specific advice young ones no what I always say is like it's a bit about perception about the UE first most important thing is no one is waiting for you here you know we all work hard here to make it happen you know you can but no one is waiting for you here that's the most important thing you know because I still Al have clients calling me I have the best Glacier mineral water from some Al somewhere in Europe you know we can sell for a premium to buy because you know first of all we already have 10 of those yeah you know it's like for it's the same for everyone it's like I would go back and say like what is your Niche you can bring to the table what is your elevator pitch you know but no one is waiting just because you're a swis lawyer you know what I mean what would be your advice is it's quite quite similar to yours but would add on is that the competition here is fierce exactly it's unbelievable if you think you're the on the top of the world um no if you think you're going to come and just um work four hours a day and and socialize the rest and work smart not hard I'm sorry that's what I mean it's like no one is waiting for you here yeah and then the thing is also like maybe compared to other jurisdiction it's it's in very simple terms UAE is 247 yeah if you get the call from your client on a Saturday and you don't answer that call the client will find someone else will take that call that would be me no you know what what I mean this the perception sometimes it's like it's not really 9 to 6 Monday to Friday but last comment on this there's enough business for everybody and there's enough opportunities for everybody if you think that the market is such rated you're wrong no no I say there's a niche for everyone everyone yes but again it's like you need to be somehow a bit more special than the guy next door yeah think of a way to do that exactly so you before coming to here is like we need to think about elevat the pitch what can I bring to the table but just because I'm a swis lawyer that's not enough there not enough no yeah you agree on that right I agree 100% And we all wear card that's I said you know yes so like even to my brother like no I'm not sitting at the beach with the laptop you know I mean it's like it's also a big perception yeah right so no we all work hard here you know absolutely and with that I thank you very much and I will let you go to continue working hard in your office thank you very much for being with us today hope to see you again soon at any of the Emir legal networks events or or other events right thank you very much thank you and with this I thank you very much for listening and watching and this is your dose from Monday legal see you next week