[Music] good morning I'm Ahmed Elnaggar and this is Monday Legal uh today my guest speaker is Nadim Jisr, he is the editorial lead of Thomson Reuters and a different abuk I know the guy very well and that's why I asked him to come join us thank you good morning and thank you very much for coming thank you for thank you for having me Nadim I will ask you the same question I asked to everybody what is your morning uh drink what do you drink in the morning um recently for the past few years it's been coffee just black coffee uh it started out with you know sugar and milk but I for as long as I can remember I think for like 10 years now or more yeah it's been just black coffee yeah I think that that happens to many lawyers they start with a lot of sweet stuff and then they stop I'm just uh it it was just a trend to actually cut down on on the intake of sugar because I like sweets I'm a person who likes sweets so I I prefer sweet food over salty food but uh but still I I started tasting you know the real coffee uh without without sugar how how how many uh coffee cups you have per day well it depends on how dep day is but uh usually it's it's one cup in the morning and one cup in the afternoon so Nadim I made a very quick unfair introduction for you but just saying your your job right now but I know that youve been working with uh with tomson roers for quite a while but I would like that you make a little bit of personal introduction for yourself from graduation and even before that if you want if you tell us why did you start with the law and how did your journey uh unfold uh my passion with the law started I think like any any any other child who you know who has a lawyer a father who is a lawyer but it's not only that I come from a generation of lawyers so my grandfather was a lawyer as well and he worked as a judge and he has some uh you know Publications in law as well so I think it's a family it's a family tradition in the DNA it is in the DNA because my other siblings as well are are actually lawyers as well uh and my sister is married to a to a PhD uh Doctor Who teaches in Kuwait uh but yes my passion with law started uh when I started you know going with my father to his office uh it was about I was about 10 or 11 years old ever since then whoever asked me uh what do you want to be when you grow up I would say a lawyer yeah uh so I eventually graduated from school I went into law school where where did you go um it was a mix of French and English schools I started in a French School in Lebanon and then when schat opened International School of schat sa system we my parents moved me to the English system and I graduated from the English system uh and then I studied law at the Lebanese University it's the Lebanese the public university in Lebanon and uh I graduated in 2007 I joined the bar in 2008 and I've been practicing since then I've joined Thompson Reuters 10 years ago almost 10 years ago now yeah coming November it will be my 10th year wow uh as an editor as a legal Specialist or legal editor for legislation and cases and I got the chance to be promoted uh you know I got the opportunity to get promoted and lead the team that I originally joined and I've been working since then with h how does it feel like working 10 years in such a big uh organization doing uh I'm not sure I'm sorry I'm sure it's not exactly the same job you've been having this promotions and growing in in your career with Thomson Reuters but what's the difference between where you started and where are you today uh the actual type of work that we do or the coverage that we have has changed a lot and the number of clients and subscribers that we cater to is increasing in you as well and you have to adapt to the market and to the change and the needs of your clients uh in terms of legal content it's not only about sourcing legislation per se legislation is available everywhere now all all governments are establishing their public portals the Arabic content is free and accessible for everyone even some them have the English text available the UAE cabinet announced their portal you know a couple of months ago so legislation is accessible to everyone it's how you package it and how you deliver it to the customer and meet his needs this is what's really challenging and keeps you growing and developing with with the way or with your client's development I mean Thompson Reuters is a big name in in in general maybe when when people who are out of the legal field would understand and recognize THS Reuters as the news company but not many understand that they are doing this legal tech product that is uh that is widely used by by many people maybe you can give our audience a little bit of introduction what does Thomson Reuters do with the legal field uh Thompson Reuters is is I mean is is more than I think around almost 20 years now or a bit less uh old uh and they are known as a legal publisher as well globally not even not only in the region but I mean globally they are known for their legal Publications for the books they publish in the UK they have the one of the main Publishers s and Maxwell uh publishing house uh in in the US they're well known and even you can see L graduates and and lawyers coming from the US they would tell you I relied on westla while while studying in in University even here as well universities are are subscribing to wesla as as a legal database or a legal resource so uh they are very active within the legal field in terms of tech definitely information and technology and they're cling they're creating all of these legal resources for for practitioners and students but now they're heavily investing in in AI yeah so they're building a lot of products around Ai and they're even equipping their already existing legal Solutions so you have ai in Weslo in the US it's coming in in for practical law in in the UK and Australia we have coom yeah so it's coming yeah so what what's your role in in in uh in Thomson Reuters in regards to this as an editorial lead what do you what do you do um our day to-day job is to maintain the database that we you know that we handle West l Middle East the product that we sell uh and the team and I are focused on keeping all of this content updated current and definitely with without errors or without uh you know discrepancies between the English and Arabic texts yeah so we're constantly on the lookout for new legislation new regulations uh to to source and update uh the same applies for cases uh and we do that for uh 10 jurisdictions across the Middle East um apart from being an a a regular uh you know support day to-day support to clients they can reach out to us by email or you know uh and send us their queries and we can help with their research and in order to do this job what do you what do you subscribe to you also subscribe to the government issued the um similarly yes like like any other law office they would have access to gazettes we have the same access so we rely on the official sources because we need to provide trust reliable trust trusted information trusted answers uh but the the way we we we publish this on the portal or the way we actually you know help the clients with this is something that requires expertise and this is what we do yeah yeah and do you handle the translation as well from the English into the different languages not personally but we have a team of translators that work with us legal translators that that help us you know with the translation they're used to translating bulks of of pages uh but we do review internally okay because we are lawyers and we are Arabic native speakers as well everybody on the team is an a native Arabic speaker because you need to understand the original language of the law yes and and see it replicated in the English text uh the the idea with um legal translation it's not literal it's it's not uh just you know Google Translate is good when you when you just put a random paragraph random or yes exactly a random text but when it comes to Legal it's it's not always literal it it's actually it's never literal it has to come within the context of the law so sometimes you need to to reread the text in Arabic understand what it means and then Translate not the actual word but translate the meaning in English so it makes sense and it's coherent with with the whole law yeah aside from these um let's say resources that you make it available for all the legal practitioners or students or anybody who's working in the legal field you I know as well that as you said Thompson Roy is a publishing uh entity and they they have their own legal literature do you write articles yourself or do you rely on editors to write regular articles uh guidance uh notes and things like that and uh where do you distribute it uh I for practical law I think you may know about practical law um um it's the main legal uh solution that Thompson reer sells which contains practical guidance different practical the different forms of practical guidance articles is the main bulk of it and we have in in-house Auditors uh sorry editors actually so we hire editors uh we hire in every region editors for practical law and they they work on the content of the region in terms of Fest law we do we do prepare in-house content I do write some some of these articles the team writes uh some of these articles as well and we publish it on a small blog that's accessible for clients uh but these are types of legal updates uh quick nuances into you know what the law is what a new law has been passed what what does it mean oh oh you know how can it impact your business but if you want in-depth analysis legal analysis from from qualified practitioners you have to go to practical law this is where the you know the the essence is well my understanding for practical law was that it it gives um more into drafts and and practical notes this is one side of it and it provides you with templates as well but the editors are required to prepare legal analysis on different subjects could be commercial corporate arbitration litigation anything and this is accessible to your clients yes of course yeah okay understood it's a different solution next to West law it's it's it complements West law because it's the Practical guidance and Westlaw is the legal database where you can find the the laws and regulations and cases tell me how practical law for example is assisting or in your clients because your clients are the law firms the lawyers who are supposed to this is a question that must be asked to clients so you can hear their feedback but uh uh I think from the interest of clients and from the way they ask about practical law it's not only in the region globally and you know every foreign lawyer that comes into the region that works in the law firm uh in the UAE they they first ask about practical law because theyve they've tested it you know in other regions and they know their uh its impact and its significance and importance so it it does help it does help and um apart from the content that's generated by by editors in-house editors of Thompson Reuters law FMS get to contribute as well into chapters about certain topics uh into amending these notes keeping it current so they can also interact with content from other law firms and see what's being written in the market about different subjects if it's not a practice area that they cover have you seen some law firms taking uh the Practical low notes and just giving the same advice to their clients immediately withouten this I don't know I haven't seen this I I don't believe this happens I mean every lawyer has to do his own due diligence even if you are taking this from a trusted Source you still need to review and tailored this to your client's case uh it's a case by case basis and the facts differ so uh what the editor's right on on practical law is not an advice for a case it's a general understanding of the law but a an inp understanding of the law which you can rely on to base you know a principal answer or a principal you know uh consultancy and then you can tailor it to your client yeah and um I have a question for you how how many hours do you spend reading a day reading or no no no just just in the job h no it's um it's non-stop reading to be honest um if if you need to understand what the client needs and you know if you want to generate more articles or prepare the content in a way that helps clients more uh you need to you need to read you need to understand the legal market and it's not only about reading laws or expanding your legal knowledge as in I know the real estate law or I know the criminal no La it's not only that this is helpful a lot uh but you need to have basic legal knowledge about how system works how the courts work uh what is a civil law system what is a common law system for example and then you would need also to understand what are the needs of a legal Market how are they developing it's not only about giving a legal opinion you need to be able to get access to the proper resources to give the proper legal opinion so Al although we're not entitled to give a legal opinion when clients ask us questions we always try to help with directing them to the right resource or to the right law or article and say look you need to read this sorry you need to read this you need to read that check this law check this that but we cannot consider this as a legal advice we're not we're not to do that but we can help direct you and a lot of the questions that I've answered the clients on where because I read a lot about the new laws that are you know coming out and uh sometimes I I I go back and read about a law that was issued two years ago or 3 years ago because by now there are a good number of articles that people wrote so you can get different perspective from an in-house perspective as as well and from a law firm's perspective and then you can formulate it from you know maybe a better answer or a better view from your own reading and understanding as well yeah so my job is not only about just sourcing the legislation I'm I have to be able to assist the clients when they reach out to me and help them understand that yes this law is applicable it's not applicable if it's if it's been amended repealed you know all of these answers so this is this is quite some reading yeah the day you you have quite a good visibility on how many Private Practice lawyers or even in-house lawyers in in the market and how many are are using the these Solutions yeah too many too many not only us I think they are using other Solutions only about Thompson Reuters I don't think there is a legal department currently that functions without at least one legal solution uh it might not be was law it might not be somewhere else it might be practical law for drafts for example this is based on you know how big the law department is the budgeting and all of that a lot of factors play come into play here but I haven't seen for the past at least three or five years now a legal department that functions without at least one legal resource or shall I say as well they they they have a legal resource and they have a management solution as well so these two go alongside yeah me and you are of a of of a I don't know we're not old but we have seen the development in this Leal resources and so on you graduate 2007 I graduate 2006 um it was not like that no no no when we started legal resources were books and were hours and hours to read actually and too much yes and and it was very hard to find uh a resource and to borrow it or to have access to it and uh now it's super easy look it's it's not it's expensive much more expensive than before let not worry let's not worry about the commercials or the budgets uh it's not about the cost of the technology or the resource that you now can get yes it might be expensive these days but I think in the future as technology advances uh it's going to become cheaper I believe it's you know people are getting more and more access to technology you can see startups Building Solutions based on AI as well so which means they are they will be able to compete and prices will go down so it's not only about uh M information being expensive to access no it's it's in my opinion it's it is easier definitely in a click with a click of a button you can read thousands of pages where you needed to read thousands of pages of volumes of alanui for example if you wanted to research something but I can tell you that this has built a generation of well vered and well- knowledged lawyers because what you read and what you write by hand and take notes this will stick with you no matter how you know I can still remember if I close my eyes I can still remember some of the notes that you know I took on a paper while studying uh you know in during the summer vacation with my father you know repeating whatever we did in University or he start he used to you know get me to sit with him every summer and to start to teach me the courses of the coming year and the laws that you know I'm I'm going to be exposed to so I can have a better understanding but this this much of reading this much of research uh the the amount of time that we spend reading whether for University uh you know duties that we have to deliver or for clients practicing as a lawyer or for our own knowledge it helped build uh the legal knowledge that we have the basis of the legal knowledge where now if you see a law or you can you read a big law like a commercial code or a maritime code or an insurance code you can understand the basic legal principles that a law is set upon and then you can start to explain to your clients this won't this doesn't happen I'm not I don't want to say that students these days are not well established in law know there are read yes they read less yes they they have easier access they they didn't spend time and uh sorry effort to actually go and research and find this material um I remember I used to set four or five hours straight in the University Library just researching one single point and when you do that you come across different articles and different cases AB so you start going from one book to another and this this helps build uh your knowledge this help builds your knowledge it's easier definitely it's easier and we should take advantage that it's it's it's getting easier for for students to learn for to get information but we need to direct them you know universities have to help them not find the right answers but formulate the right answer okay you have the access yes uh have you seen have you seen a gap between the as you said the fresh graduates or the younger generation who are more acquainted with the technology and use of technology and the seniors who are already well established and so on that these guys are much faster and the old school are still a little behind with the technology especially in the ter in terms of research some of the old school lawyers if we are old school lawyers so some of the old school lawyers um may not you know uh you know uh keep up with technology we can keep up we we're still young we can keep up we can build our offices in to be you know uh Tech uh friendly um people who are studying and graduating from universities now who have easy access to technology yes this is this is wow this is wonderful but we don't need to lose sight of the main purpose that even though information is accessible and it should be accessible you need to be taught how to find the right answer and how to formulate the right answer or to think as a lawyer it's not only about having the access to legislation or information because if you don't know how to use it it's useless yeah it's a weapon without we had the university uh Professor that used to teach us the civil code uh back back then and um he he was always you know um telling us that I I don't mind giving you an exam with an open book just take all the books you need if you understand the Lang if you understand the lesson and you understand the law you you will find these books useful if you don't understand you don't study you don't do your own research I can give you 10 volumes of laws and tell you these are all applicable to your case but you won't be able to solve your exam because you don't understand so it's a matter of understanding what legal is and how you think in a legal way and then you can find your answers yes in a click of a button it's easy that's good it should be this way the skill is beyond the resources yes yes so people need to build skills uh that adapt with technology but uh you have to do the research you have to do the research the Gap is not about uh the students not being well knowledged no they have the knowledge but it's about them being probably more used to free access not free in money I mean easy access yeah uh compared to what we had in our days we had to look in libraries we had to bring down books see the index read the text if you don't find return it and then come come back and do the whole process again for 100 or 200 books this I think this has enabled at least I speak from a personal experience this has enabled me that I can research I can do a proper research with the access of Technology but I can do research and find content that's not available on legal Solutions or I I need to dig it from a government portal somewhere I need to dig a case from Dubai Court's website I know how to dig it you know not because of Technology because I have a skill of you know I formulated in my mind the skill of what I need to look for so I can locate the case I need this is an example yeah I'm going to go back asking about you yourself I mean your father was in private practice I understand he's a lawyer and you did he's still he still he's still and you did work with him for a while I understand I worked uh for 5 years before I I started my trip watch the GCC region yeah and this switch don't you miss it to go back to the private prti I do miss it and I'm trying to go back to be honest uh it's um it's my career and it's my profession and it's the job that I chose because I love it and the more I practice it the more I find myself yes I I love to do this with all the pain of being a lawyer and uh you know uh doing the work and uh being responsible for you know you're actually telling someone to do or not to do something so you are yeah a huge responsibility but absolutely yeah alhamdulillah but I mean uh I I miss it and no no the plan for me in the future is to actually yeah go back to practice and uh I don't know maybe build my own practice that's very interesting top of what my father has built it's a legacy it's a legacy that I'm proud to be you know coming from and to actually develop into the future I'm sure any any legal practice you do is going to be very successful because you're one of the sharpest lawyers I've I've met I you know we communicate all the time on our social group of lawyers and we we we know you as the one who's going to easily find a mistake in any honest I do my own research as well sometimes I don't have the answers for all the questions and if someone asks something that I don't know I don't answer it's not about knowing everything but if it's something that's appealing or something that I might have a notion of I go back and research double check confirm my answers and then I would provide my uh my feedback and I may still be wrong sometimes I don't know uh but yes I do that and I usually do that in in most of the subjects that you know I I I love or I like to practice more employment for example or real estate or stuff like that but yeah uh I don't I don't want to I don't go into too much uh critical practice areas criminal stuff I can do the research but you know I don't I Know It's Tricky a bit tricky here in the yeah the Practical side is very important on these areas it needs be especially the questions that are coming you know from the colleagues they're too practical so I don't have this experience I'm I'm I'm honest uh but yeah but I believe you know in most of the cases they ask um I can provide an answer and but I do I do my own research this is a tip so people would know yeah before I do I answer anything I double check always for the last 10 years you've been very I mean you've been working for a legal Tech solution more or less um what do you say or what do you advice to the new lawyers or people who are pursuing a legal career what are the main important skills that lawyers have to uh have uh in order to to thrive in their career today and look the basic research skilles and knowledge skilles and compounding your knowledge uh and this won't happen unless you read as much as you can you have to read regardless of Technology you have to read to understand and and compound knowledge and research if you want to grow your knowledge you need to research as much as you can or as much as much time allows you uh but apart from that this is I think this is uh this goes without saying any lawyer needs to do that uh the additional skills that we can see growing in the past few years is technology so you need to adapt yourself to technology you need to adapt yourself embrace the change that technology is bringing and benefit from it basically I'm not of the view that uh machines will replace humans or AI will you know kill jobs I don't believe in killing jobs I I think it's it's about maybe switching the scope of the job or maybe the description of what you do so an editor will remain an editor he can benefit from AI tools but he can still do the job of an editor and the lawyer is the same way and and this is very practical for the profession the legal profession is is relies a lot on critical thinking as well and AI is not yet there it can help a lot it can summarize documents for you it can translate at some point if you want it can get you the right information probably if you want if you do a research or ask a question even ideas if you want ideas for still need to do your due diligence yes and you do need to actually put all of the factors and information you get together together so you can formulate a proper uh answer or proper opinion uh so I think most students now I believe universities will start even soon uh you know including probably technology courses uh for lawyers you mean you're suggesting law law schools yes why not yeah yeah you need you need to get it's not only about giving access in libraries uh 80% of student students maybe don't access or 70% you know they go in once or twice not on a regular basis to be used to to Tech uh but if you if you give it as a as a course as an elective course for example teach them about how you can be effective in your legal research how to do a proper legal research using AI tools or technology tools this is very important and one more thing I I don't think it's about technology only it's it's basically about knowledge a legal uh a student or a legal you know a lawyer in my opinion in my personal opinion needs to have general knowledge across different practice areas it's yes I know you can be specialized in m&as you can be specialized in Maritime this is this is all fine you will be the expert to people go to when it comes to insurance for example yes but if you are a lawyer practicing lawyer you have an office and you get clients from everywhere and different cases you have to have basic knowledge Finance knowledge it's very important uh you know it's very important it's um you you said I'm a bookm I'm I I'm reading a book about uh um the Greece Financial uh crisis that happened uh in 2015 or before that yeah uh and I'm reading this book because I started reading it because I was interested with our financial crisis that happened in Lebanon I think you've heard of it three or four years ago now yes and uh I I'm I wanted to understand how the financial system works across the globe and why does a government comes you know is is in thatb or how can Banks be bankrupt and stuff like that and I found that this book is interesting it's by he was a Minister of Finance in in Greece he's been banned by the way from from Germany recently because of the recent uh uh incidents happening in Palestine what he's preaching he's very vocal about politics very too much so he I got interested in his views and I'm reading his book now and I found that you need you need knowledge you need knowledge and law covers everything it covers everything yeah crypto for example this is finance but all there is a of it right virtual assets this is one side of it anything anything has is you know the commercial side is there you need to understand it from a commercial perspective there's always a legal regulatory aspect yes so it's not only about what the law says and we go by the book you need to you know understand since you're one of the most people I know who are reading laws and they are so up to date yes what is the one law that you would either change or introduce you you're free to suggest either to change onece one in the UAE maybe in the UAE that probably is the UA is very active yes in terms of legislation they're very active and they've gone uh through a whole en yeah of laws they issued 50 or 55 laws in the past three or five years uh two three two years 3 years um they changed a lot of legislation but I think one of them would be I wouldn't say change probably develop or enhance or you know build in a better structured way probably would be the leasing lawal law yeah in Dubai in Dubai or and can be across other Emirates as well but I've had a lot of friends and family members come and ask me recently about uh rental issues increases and eviction notices and a lot of that and I found that the law sometimes can be obscure and you need more clarity now yes you can see what the practice is with the courts but still uh if you have a better structured law uh maybe uh you know provide all the answers that people are now actually or answers to the issues that people are facing within you know the uh relationship it it's good I mean the law was passed in 2007 it was amended a couple of times not too long ago the recent one was maybe in 2009 or 8 or 9 and it has been applicable since then it is it's it's going fine but I mean it's good to have an update yeah uh it's been 16 years now yeah a lot of change I totally agree with you what what I would say in this regard and particularly for for the same law I would pretty much like if there is a unified uh law as well in regards to tenant and landlord relationship uh all over the UAE not that I have a different yeah it will help a lot definitely a federal law that covers all the Emirates on on a unified level this is very important it's it's it's great actually yeah uh but I I think that each it has its own probably regulatory agency where they not only the you know rants in Dubai the activity in Dubai the commercial practice in Dubai is different than it is in Chara or rim or any other emirat so you cannot put one simple rule that applies to all rents across all Emirates still unless you have one all Emirates are of the same level you cannot charge people uh similar rent for for example a one bedroom or a two bedroom in Dubai Marina and charge it the same way in Al or you know there are factors that come into play so yes the local factors of each Emirates of each amate is important to take into consideration maybe at some point we might get to see uh a federal law for leas yeah I think I think if Bas principles but then there might be yeah but this is a bit of a private uh activity between a tenant and the landlord and it's restricted to the you know the amirit that you are in so that's why I think they keep it uh separately regulated for now Naim it's always a pleasure to talk to you it's always a pleasure uh brain storm with you some ideas and so on thank you very much for coming and it's a pleasure thank you for the opportunity and it's been uh you know a pleasure and we we've seing we're seeing the the previous videos of all your uh thanks it's a pleasure and I'm honored to bring you here and I'm sure I'm going to repeat it soon thank you very much thank you very much this is your those from M legal see you next week